Hello everyone, you’re listening to Living on Blockchain and this is your host Tarusha. A little about me, I’m the co-founder of Ethx, a crypto and blockchain suite. We are making crypto and blockchain more accessible to users as well as enterprises.
It’s all about greater adoption. Today’s episode is going to be an interview with a very very special icon in the blockchain space. Jillian is the co-founder of Blockleaders.io. She has authored several books and is a leading journalist in the fintech and crypto space.
She’s been named the crypto queen by NGO conferences and she was also listed among the 50 most influential women in the global blockchain roll call. She’s a board member of EOS Dublin. She’s a community leader for Algorand.
She is chain agnostic and she loves blockchain in general. She is a huge blockchain advocate and I’m very excited to get her in. So let’s get her right in.
Hi Jillian, thank you so much for taking out the time to do this interview. I’m absolutely in awe of your achievements. Let’s dive right in.
How are you doing today? I’m doing brilliantly, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It’s really great to have you.
Please tell us a little bit about your background and what inspired you to sort of get involved in this crypto and blockchain space. Do you want the long version or the short version? We can have the gist. I was born in February 2017.
I had a kind of a traditional fintech career. It was called high tech in those days. You know I worked with JP Morgan in London.
I worked in Australia and Singapore and mostly PR for fintech companies and then I also started doing some journalism. I love writing. Writing is my passion so I started doing a lot more writing.
I began to do some IT journalism and I really loved it and my life was very nice, very lovely. Traveled the world, came home to Ireland with my English husband. We lived in Dublin for a bit and then we moved down the country and everything was wonderful, wonderful.
I had two children. We had a little pony for the elder one. We had a big house.
We had a good business. It was great, only it wasn’t. Sadly it wasn’t.
My husband and I split up at that stage so that was obviously something was not quite right but we did it at the height of the crash so it was a bad time to get divorced in a recession. The short story is basically we had this big house, big mortgage, tried to sell it and the price was crashing the entire time so I moved out. My husband moved back to the UK.
He became bankrupt in the UK, gave all the debt to myself and our two children. I’m going to sort all this out. It’s a bit chaotic and the crash is happening and so I moved out to a little cottage because I couldn’t afford to stay in the house and the kids had a few ponies and everything was going terribly and the drug squad actually evicted my tenants in the big house so I couldn’t rent it out again so I had to try and sell it.
I made a video to try and sell it. The video went viral and I got a cash offer of 500,000 but it was still less than the cost of the mortgage so the banks refused consent to sell and they preferred to repossess the home and they sold the following year for 165,000 so it made no sense whatsoever. In the midst of all this chaos that was happening, that was just my own little story, but the rest of Ireland was going through this huge crash and people were being shamed by the banks into not paying their mortgages and they were all this talk about gaming the system whatever and as a result so many people, in particular men, were taking their own lives because they couldn’t repay their mortgages because they bought in the peak of the Celtic Tiger and now maybe they’d lost their jobs or they’d been unwell or they’d been through divorce whatever and it was just people every day were committing suicide and it was through shame for financials, failing financially.
So I got really angry at this because I’m going to go, yes I’ve lost everything but I didn’t do anything wrong. I didn’t commit a crime so I became a bit political and a bit politicized and I’ve got sort of ranting and raving against the banks and talking about parity of their responsibility and stuff like that and anyway so when the banks took my home I was there I had no money, I had a large debt, I had no assets, I had no choice but to go bankrupt and I was the first female bankrupt under the new laws and then I discovered as a bankrupt I wasn’t allowed to run for public office and I went excuse me you know back to this I mean I’ve done nothing wrong you know I’ve failed but I haven’t committed a crime so I brought the government to the high court and I said my constitutional rights were infringed because I wasn’t allowed to run public office and went all the way to the supreme court but I was successful I changed the law and then when you change the law you’ve got to do something about it and the next elections were the 2014 European parliamentary elections and so I ran in that and it was great fun. It was a learning exercise and I had amazing time.
I ran as an independent and I got 11,500 votes which was wonderful not enough to get elected but it was amazing and I had a great time and I thought I was doing my bit by talking about financial failure and saying it wasn’t shameful it was a thing you know a thing and just it happens to people and usually through no fault of their own you know and it just is a thing so that’s where I sort of that’s my short version right the long version anyway my life went really quiet and I thought I’d help people I’ve been writing about this stuff I did a lot of radio and I was you know I was very concerned about people who were feeling chained by the banks and by society and I’m going you know it’s tough you don’t need to have shame put on top of you as well and I thought but how can I make the world a better place you know what can I do next I’m kind of is that done and then just a little under two years ago I met blockchain and I went oh now this makes sense to me and I went I know I was so excited this makes utterly sense to me I can see how I can now be part of a movement that can change the world for the better so that’s my short short version oh this is such a wonderful story really you know you had a breakthrough and obviously I was pretty inspired by when I started going through your bio and you know how you sort of ran as independent and self is very very impressive now you’re telling me the background story it makes it more impressive wonderful to know uh tell me a little about block leaders how did you come about starting it and a little bit of an overview okay well block leaders is my passion right it’s uh long for informed journalism because I found um I’ve worked a lot I say I’ve got like 30 years of fintech experience behind me um and 20 of that in journalism too as well but as a PR for 30 years you know I pitch editorial the whole time I do some PR still today it’s why I’m always pitching to editors and I’m also an editor I also have edited other public ordinary fintech publications and um you know if it’s a good news story a good angle it should get traction but I found increasingly in the the cryptocurrency world it was all about money it was all advertorial which is when you pay for your space come on lads if I’ve got a good story surely that shouldn’t make it run I don’t shouldn’t have to pay you so and also what I found too as well I have the best gift of all my in 2017 2018 sorry and 2017 as well I’ve been traveling all around the world uh chairing conferences and blockchain and you meet the most amazing people and I thought wow I would like to have a site that interviews those people so it’s actually like it’s the greatest joy I can have because these people are amazing there’s so many amazing passionate intelligent clever thought-provoking people working in this space and I get to interview them and then I get to write up the articles and I love the writing so it’s and because it’s long form I’m not compressed like 500 words of a business article that’s going to fit on a page I can write up to you know up to 2000 words if I want to and that’s that’s nice because you get to understand who the people are and what they’re doing and what they’re talking about and why they’re doing what they’re doing and it’s just that makes it all the more interesting because before when I was writing in my business life as a business journalist you know I was writing for the Sunday Independent here uh the business page it’s very it’s very functional what is the business what is it doing you know what what’s the turnover and it’s nice it’s very clean writing it’s interesting but this way I mean I wouldn’t ask the CEO of a typical IT company you know why he got up in the morning let’s not have questions but with block leaders I can dig into it and I did it actually there’s a story running today and I know this is going to run later but today is the um 17th of May and um there’s a story running on block leaders today it’s Friday with uh Mark Taverner from Bitfury which is one of the original miners and I met Mark in Oman wonderful speaker he travels the world he’s a guru he’s a wonderful wonderful speaker yeah and I interviewed him but he talked about his 16 year old son who wants to change the world and colonize Mars I went your 16 year old boy said that a six what so his son kind of stole the story the whole story’s about a son and not about Mark at all but I have the joy of doing that I mean and Mark of course is thrilled to as well because obviously he is a guru he’s an amazing man and he’s a good hole but what he’s talking about obviously it resonates in the family home and it’s because most 16 year old boys do not want to change the world most 16 year old boys you know they want to you know play football or play you know play games that you know they’re not colonizing Mars you’re like wow where does that come from okay that’s exciting but also we see that too as well this is one example the thing that I love I mean you look at the global climate movement and Greta Thunberg and all those kids go strikes I mean it gives me hope that a young people millennials that are much maligned are actually thinking I mean about doing thinking about really important things and they’re doing stuff about it and then I think with blockchain there’s an opportunity to break open the world and it’s not that I’m a you know an anarchist you know I’m quite boring middle class middle-aged woman you know but I want to see things done differently and the blockchain definitely the whole movement it’s not just the technology it’s the whole way of thinking it will change the world and you know there are some of us old crusties involved you know but there are also young people coming through and that’s so exciting you’re probably I haven’t met you so I’m sure you’re a young person as well but that’s exciting that young people are actually energized and I think blockchain will give them the tools right to actually make a change of a platform say yes we can change we can make different kind of banks we can make different types of government and again it’s not that I’m an anarchist I’m saying let’s look at what we have and let’s just figure out why are we doing it this way because we’ve always done it this way yeah let’s question it a little more that that is you know the whole point rather than just following the norm yeah it is it’s at least the definition of insanity doing the same things expecting a different outcome yeah but I think what’s interesting is that it’s taken me 12 years and a lot of you know big things happening in my life for me to rethink the system you know I say I mean I can consider myself you know largely you know middle class and you know quite boring and you know you know I like myself whatever but it’s only that because I’ve been through uh adversity and met blockchain at the same time I started to go well why is it like that you know why why can banks do that what why you know this big why institutions why should they have that much power yes why should banks rule the world I mean we don’t want banks ruling the world not the way they’re set up currently not serving people they’re serving themselves so it is interesting and again it’s not people say I’m not an anarchist and maybe I am an anarchist I don’t know but I just I want to see things differently I want my kids to experience life differently to how it is now yeah that that completely makes sense and let me just add I don’t think you are you anything but boring or crusty which you keep saying oh what I see in you I do not think that at all I think any anybody who’s working in blockchain they’ve been called an anarchist by someone or the other in some form in any way so I think welcome to the same club so I think this is just the new way that the world needs to be shaped we need to question more and to question more not follow the norm and somehow change things for the better as you said you’re trying to make it better for your kids so it’s about the world a better place it is it’s huge and I’ve never been part of a movement it is a movement where that is so I mean I know people want to make money and they want to change things they want to do clever stuff you they’ve lots of different things but that is an underlying current yeah making the world a better place and that is huge in a commercial technical movement I mean I’ve never seen that before I’ve never had so many people genuinely I mean and there are other motives too of course other agendas but there’s this underpinning thing we’ve got to make this better and that’s very powerful I’ve never seen that ever before even even in in religious movements that’s true it’s about actually you know these are a bunch of people when whoever I talk to whoever is like working in this space they’re genuinely you know genuine people who really want to make a change who want to make a difference who want to make it better who want to use technology for the betterment of you know development and you know in like developing countries etc and that is what really impresses me about people who are working in this space and I see this in you yeah and you know it’s very interesting I it kind of fits into my worldview when we were growing up my dad is dead now my mom’s alive they’re brilliant parents but we were always thought to do a lot of you know we got involved in the community you know the whole idea of the village raising a child so we were involved with all the different things in the community with the church with the school with the clubs whatever you’re involved we got involved and we actively gave back and we were all always taught to look beyond not just our own community there’s other people so that was kind of an upbringing that we had and then I remember I met somebody and this person would be would consider themselves to be quite generous etc etc etc but this person only looked after his own immediate family I remember thinking he would not help somebody if it didn’t it didn’t impact him or benefit him you know and a lot of people like that who would be generous in their own circle but who don’t think about maybe somebody else whom they don’t know you know a stranger and I think what’s nice about this movement I keep calling it a movement is that there is that inherent feeling that people want to help people that they don’t know yeah and that’s really nice I think that’s a very nice you it’s not of course you want to help your family of course you want to look after your kids of course you want to help your friends and your neighbors that’s a given you know if you’re a genuine human being that’s a given but I really like the fact that stuff that we do here can help people in another country I mean we never know them never meet it’s not even like giving aid we never meet these people but because of changes that we’re trying to bring about here it should positively impact in their lives wow that’s that’s like that’s a real um butterfly effect isn’t it absolutely totally I think that is why uh you know both you and I are in this space and we are working because of that like the nameless faceless stranger that we might end up helping in some way by the ripple effect that we are causing so yeah I don’t think that’s so cool yeah so what is your vision for our block leaders like what is next what do you intend to add well what I want to do is um I like this is I say it under my breath I really want to get out there and travel more and talk to more people because and I say it’s under my breath because I do recognize it I get on an airplane it’s not so good for the climate so I’m contradicting myself a little bit on that but I read a very interesting article by Alex Mashinsky if I pronounce his name right the CEO of Celsius he also invented VoIP back in the day and he made a really important point that you and I are passionate about blockchain about what it can do in the world right that’s great but he said it is almost a moral imperative that anybody who’s working in this sector we have to bring in our friends who know nothing about it and we have to kind of just talk in our own little bubbles and get very we have to go outside that because there is a danger that this might not succeed if we don’t get the mass adoption that we need for this technology and this movement and this thinking you know the old form might might stay in charge and we don’t want that so my view is I want to reach more and more people I want to get a mainstream you know that mainstream adoption so for block leaders what I’m trying to do is interview more and more people and then also use it as a platform to go and talk to other conferences and not just blockchain conferences I’m trying to broaden my thing there to get to tech conferences you know not some sort of and then also as a journalist I’m trying to get on to uh media conferences now and recently I started reaching out and I was too late there’s an amazing um literary conference uh next week in it’s it’s a quite an international one although it’s a local one here in Ireland and I’m too late but the woman said who’s organized it’s a beautiful conference it’s literature and it’s thinking and it’s dance and arts so she said talk to me next year because she sees that I’m passionate about what I’m doing so I’m thinking I should take my story and not just look at blockchain I need to go much broader and get into like I’ve also um I’m going to see my local school the local secondary school it’s quite a big school for the area those in the country there’s a thousand pupils and I’ve gone to the principal there I’ve said can I come in and talk to your transition year students their kids who take a year out between their um interim interest inter-cycle and their leaving cycle so it’s just about 16 17 can I come in and talk to children there because I just have to talk everywhere and I’m also bashing in the heads without much success in my head I have a lot of editors in the traditional space here that I’ve written for and I’m trying I keep on knocking the door saying let me in let me in let me in I really want to um write about blockchain for ordinary people yeah because I mean we’re all ordinary people for people who don’t know about it and so I think that’s that’s my vision is you know what we put on this earth to do and increasingly I think all my experience all my experience actually my entire life I’m meant to be advocating for blockchain in in all its aspects and getting into the ordinary because my my my story is we talked about briefly it’s a very it’s a very ordinary story a lot of people have been through financial failure and all the rest of it but it’s it means that I’m not some really intelligent PhD professor in MIT or something like that you know I’m an ordinary person who’s been through some stuff in life that people can identify with and now I’m going wow I can make a difference so I’ve I it’s like the reason why I ran for the European Parliament was I thought I have all this misery and I can let it define me or I can use it for a purpose and I can use it for a purpose to make other people who are failing financially feel better because they’re either not as bad as me or they see that I’m talking about it or there’s you know there is no shame in it so so in that regard the same way now that I love the blockchain I have this imperative that I really really really really need to talk to people outside the 1% who are are those at the 1 billion is it 3% I can’t think of what the thing is there’s a very small number of people involved in this sector currently yeah yeah so another nice thing too about this whole movement I keep calling it a movement I sound like cult or something um unlike trickle down economics which by the way we know doesn’t work and this is bottom up movement so it will work because if you’re ever engaged you kind of stop the people I must be an anarchist I think no field or sector can sort of grow in a vacuum and I love the fact that you know you’re talking to people out there and you’re sort of going to other conferences as well not just blockchain conferences because when we just sort of insulate the community it uh at some point there would you know stagnation would set and uh it’s it’s so wonderful that you want to go and festival I think that would be wonderful it’s about fast adoption and that can only happen when more people are educated about it right now there’s way too much uh jargon there’s the you know in this field people talk about things uh without really understanding that uh perhaps the end user will not get it or assimilate it and that’s why I think you know that is uh one reason why you’re on this podcast as well and I am I created this podcast because I want to take out so that people actually understand it because I think that’s the only way that mass adoption can happen and I think too as well as the the two big things that that people throw at blockchain and cryptocurrencies it’s a ponzi scheme and it’s really bad for all the energy it’s like you get beyond that it’s not a ponzi scheme it’s a fiat money actually is a ponzi scheme and then also it’s you know yes bitcoin is very uh energy intensive but there are many blockchains that have come afterwards that use no energy proof of state gets rid of all that computing power and it’s only going to improve you know because you have also I actually Tim Draper I think said you know he said he was asked did he really think the blockchain and bitcoin and cryptocurrency would succeed and he said if you think about it fiat money is controlled by governments and bureaucracy cryptocurrencies on the other hand is attracting some of the most bright people in the world so who would like to put your money on I think the bright people because they’re going to come up with all the stuff that that that it’s going to totally and it’s not again I’m not I’m anti-fiat I’m anti how it is administered and how it is controlled definitely hundred percent so actually that is the perception that people people tend to think that you know as you said you know being labeled as an anarchist and being told that okay but you know this is this is a system and why how how else do you uh do you propose to do these new way of things I think it is a little about you know whenever you introduce something new there would be resistance and resistance especially by businesses who are profiting from it uh 100% you’ll get that and then you are in the user what is your perception of the laws and the policies in uh europe regarding crypto okay well at the moment we’re facing huge challenges here because of brexit and ireland is hugely impacted by brexit because people who are producing things like farmers or manufacturers the biggest markets over in britain obviously and then we have the border with northern ireland and the last 20 years we’ve had the peace the good friday agreement and that has been threatened by a hard border being put back in place so we are facing huge problems here at the moment and in terms of the eu ireland is more favourable towards the eu and there are some bad things there’s a lot of bureaucracy there’s a lot of money you know there’s there’s constant easing there’s a lot of things that I don’t like where the EU has been very good um is in equality yeah because um we would have had we inherited from the UK we had a lot of laws that were inequal so for example david norris senator david norris brought the irish government to the european court of human rights because being gay was not legal it was illegal to be a gay man in i think it was in the 70s yeah mad um and he he’s a lecturer he’s actually a friend as well a really good guy but he brought and he was he was able to change the law in ireland because of european uh uh court of human rights and we’ve had a lot of things recently we um brought through the the past the eighth amendment uh repealed the eighth amendment because we didn’t we didn’t have we couldn’t have terminations pregnancy terminations here in ireland and whatever whatever your your feelings are no one actually wants an abortion obviously but because it was illegal in around 3 000 women every year had to go over to the UK to have this procedure done and it put me stress it was just wrong people who had you know babies were going to die anyway young mums no food and money so the eu has been very positive for us in in uh asserting our you know our rights especially as women in particular or if you’re in in a minority where it’s not so good is it’s also sorry we’ve got a lot of income came in as well we had a lot of funds a lot of our roads were built with eu money so we were a net receiver at some stage however they also took away because we’re an island they took away a lot of our natural rights so it can be argued that although we got a lot of money in to build our roads which is great because we’re a very small country you know four million people in the south yeah and it was also not so good because it we gave away in our natural rights around the the fishing and oils and stuff like that that was more that was given away so yeah the eu it’s cumbersome it’s it’s not great there’s a lot of bureaucracy there’s a lot of um it’s a talking shop half the time however we’re coming into the elections again next week we’re we’re voting in our meps and there’s a couple of rabble rousers going into the pot so that could be interesting i think that there was one there last year ming he was called he’s great he was always creating chaos and there’s another two people who are going who are very left-wing but they’re good to shake up because it is very bureaucratic okay all right okay and what about ireland in particular what is uh island’s perception uh of you know of the society of the government of blockchain and crypto what do you feel okay on this very interesting country we are we have no natural resources well actually except water which could be very valuable going yeah but we um we have a lot of work with the we will be when the uk leaves the the eu will be the only native speaking english country left in the eu so our economy is booming at the moment and also the government’s very clever about uh in the 80s i think it was they brought in they did a lot of attractive uh tax rates which we’re also in conflict with the rest of the eu but we managed to track nine out of the top 10 fintech companies into ireland so things like facebook and airbnb and twitter and sap and oh look most most the top 10 uh top nine or top 10 fintechs and pharma are located in ireland so it means we are very it friendly with regards to blockchain in particular we’re holding our first blockchain week at the end of may blockchain ireland so there’s about 50 events all over the country taking place that’s exciting and and so there’s a bit of a movement the government’s a bit slow it’s slow um it hasn’t done anything like malta or isle of man it’s gebraltar it’s uh being a bit slow in looking at blockchain and cryptocurrencies but there is a movement and you know i’m not yeah i’m hopeful i’m hopeful because they will realize that this is a game changer you know yeah yeah so i think there are a lot of governments i uh apart from perhaps you know in usa they are slow in the uptake with the entire policy formation for blockchain and crypto they keep either flip-flopping from one to the other or they are still uh you know making the laws but as you said even i am hopeful that uh they will realize the benefit versus the challenges because this is such new technology in its infancy i think policymakers do have their own reservations and also they need the right kind of uh you know information for them to truly understand rather than just sort of labeling it as a ponzi scheme or just sort of thinking of blockchain as bitcoin which is what the larger perception seems to be yeah i mean i think in some ways it’s been good the when bitcoin peaked at the 20 grand back in the end of 2017 and i’ve had pros and cons everybody was speaking about it right and all of them was a ponzi scheme but i think it’s going back now as we know it’s kind of around eight eight grand whatever but it’s it’s not not a bad thing because if everyone’s talking about it even if it’s not even if they’re saying it’s a ponzi scheme they’re talking about it yeah and i think in time if they’ll have heard us they’re gonna hear the next and go oh oh maybe it’s not a ponzi scheme oh maybe that’s that use case because um jaguar jeep or land rover jeep announced a couple weeks ago in ireland they’re going to be trialing this new thing where they’re going to pay drivers of new cars cryptocurrencies their own coin if uh to have feedback so about potholes and traffic and so it’s all that data that they’re going to monitor us and it was reported in in all the media now muslim didn’t mention cryptocurrencies they said uh digital rewards they didn’t like to use the word cryptocurrency but it’s getting there it’s i i think this whole awareness thing is starting to break through and then and then people are scared of new things they’re scared to change and institutions are threatened rightly so because they become these bulbous horrible you know amorphous horrible corporates that are not serving their customer as well so they’re right to be scared because they will be held accountable in this new world absolutely right okay no so i i think we share the perception that as i said that you know people usually uh you know fear change and they don’t know how things because they do not know they fear the outcome more than the change what’s going to happen post that change is implemented i think that’s where the fear comes from and uh that’s that brings us back to the same chain of thought that you know uh information information information is the key as well for mass adoption and for people to understand it and perceive it better for them to realize uh the kind of benefit that this technology will bring into their life yeah and also i mean the irony is too as well if you ask most people what they think about financial institutions people the trust is gone you know the people are like going you know i’m not very happy with the bank the crisis the lehman brothers the 2008 the bailing out the banks the bailing in people generally don’t trust the bank so i think it’s this only question say well you know what let’s look at other other other alternatives and i i think the tipping point will come soon yeah i think maybe three years we’ll see a huge shift yeah i i do believe that i think that is like a universal feeling all over the world in any country people are usually not happy with the banks but they don’t really have an alternative to sort of look at either but as you said the tipping point should come soon and they should be looking at uh you know blockchain and crypto and tokenized currency as is something that would help them uh make that change and lead better lives yes yeah i think it is i was at a conference there last year and i met a friend who haven’t seen in ages and it was interesting we were talking about this and you know how one percent of the world owns eighty percent of the wealth you know it’s absolutely crazy it’s getting worse and we’re talking you know what with cryptocurrencies they can hang on to their fear we don’t want their fear we can exchange value and do business and live our lives quite independently of the fiat mechanism and he said do you think it’ll be a bloodless revolution or not we don’t have to we don’t have to fire a bullet you don’t have to end we just have to say do you know what i don’t want to have uh any fiat money i’m going to work here you’re going to pay me cryptocurrency and i’m going to spend it blah blah let’s change you know we could a big silent movement of people away from fiat and then the banks will say oh oh where have they all gone here we’re still here we’re not using your money yeah and you know we were relating uh the crypto friendly life i mean i interviewed a chap he’s an irish guy he’s a young guy i think he’s he’s traveling a lot but i interviewed him and he’s he lives off the grid he does everything via cryptocurrency wow i think there’s a lot of examples of people who are now trying to actively move towards it but again it comes down to you know how many because for people to do that for people to make that uh you know sort of leap uh they need to have more information which is as i said you know it’s so great that this particular sector is now opening up and it’s not just insulated uh so so that more people can join this uh movement as they put it yes yeah and so it’s it’s like a very silent wave coming in you know a rising water and you go oh it’s here it’s already here yeah and not a gun needs to be shot truly truly yeah so uh tell me what uh is the key role of uh media or journalists in in crypto and the blockchain space well how do you perceive the media role well it’s it it has to explain and raise awareness currently it’s doing a very bad job this is the mainstream i i’ve come up against as i say editors who will not even talk to me about say no i’m sorry it’s ponzi and my local nuj branch i i am not allowed i keep saying let me talk about blockchain please they won’t give me the space yeah so additional journalists are fighting back as hard as or other organizations which is very unfortunate because we’re the fourth estate we’re meant to hold government to account we’re meant to hold organizations to account we’re meant to bring awareness of new things that benefit humanity you know so it’s i mean and those and essentially those that are in this space a lot of them are people who are just very keen on blockchain maybe who aren’t journalists but it surprises me time and again that journalists who are meant to be investigative and thinking and asking questions are so slow to come to this field so we should be doing more yeah that’s that’s true i have that same perception as well i i was reading up about you and i read that you mentor startups as well so how has your experience been in that space and uh then you know that actually is coming to the question that how do startups who are working in this space crypto blockchain how should they approach uh journalists and the you know people in the media so that they can be written about okay well i’ve always done that when i’ve in my capacity whether i’ve been a successful businesswoman or very broke i’ve always tried to help other people because i and also at this stage too as well i have a huge network you know it’s i look around i go gosh i know that person and that person by sheer dint of being on this planet 54 years you know you get to know so many people so i’ve always helped people starting up because i admire tremendously i love entrepreneurs i love people who have ideas and passion and want to do something so if i can help anybody anyway i always would and in terms of if you are a startup looking to um get out in this space it is tough because traditional media won’t look at you if you’re in blockchain and a lot of the blockchain media are very keen to um to take money off you so it’s not easy however if i were a startup what i would be doing if you have spare bandwidth and i know people are so so busy whatever there’s a huge lot of new media and influencers and bloggers and writers so i would almost say just start capturing friendly names and making friends with people who are doing podcasts such as yourself just myself and just reach out and say can i come on your podcast can i can i you write an article you take this piece and um i think you you can go you can go there’s more than one way to skin a cat you know but you know just sort of reaching out at times can be very helpful because you might be just pleasantly surprised well i think most people do you know what i often would do as well most people if they you promos it’s an irish word irish expression if you flatter the person that you want to be on so if you said gosh jill you’re great i’d love to be on your show but i think oh really okay because people are human beings you know or i often say if you want advice or you want something you can always say can i have a coffee with you or can i have a five-minute conversation i’d love to get your ideas people love to be asked their advice and that’s a way in of connecting with people so don’t necessarily go straight say oh you know i want you to do this say may i ask your opinion may i get your advice and most people are flattered by that naturally and if you’re talking then who knows you know a relationship can form or you get some good advice or you make a connection and when you’re i always say to startups too as well people will say no all the time right so just just you know build a bridge get over it it’s not people will say no and they have and they have reasons for saying no which might have nothing to do with you whatsoever yeah i mean we all know some of the best um like singers and the best inventors best writers were all they all had no they all have rejections yeah um jk rowling her book was rejected harry potter was rejected so many times yeah and she keeps on going so people reject you because you don’t fit into their mold or they’re thinking or they’re just having a plain bad day doesn’t mean that your idea is is bad it just just get up and go on to the next one yeah exactly it doesn’t have to be the end of the road for you just because you have uh you know phase of rejection just means that you know sort of you will try the next door so to say yeah and it’s it’s i know it’s not easy rejection is not easy to take but you go okay that’s one other one down you know and and then by sheer dint of keeping or keeping on trying that whole persistence thing you will get somebody or you’ll find someone and then you know you have a lovely conversation you go wow i feel great that’s amazing that person’s wonderful you know you walk off with a spring in your step then all right yeah totally i understand that so uh that brings me to my next question what challenges uh did you face by uh setting up block leaders and uh how did you overcome them uh biggest challenge actually we’re facing them again we got investment at the start and then that ran out so now i’m trying to reorganize it again to get some more investment and i’m doing most of the writing myself um at the moment because i can’t afford to pay writers hopefully i’ll come around again money is typically the hardest thing to keep things going and i mean obviously i’ve got time and i’ve got experience um so i’m going to build in a new team that are going to do all the sales for me because sales is not really my skill set yeah um the other challenge is um but i mean i love it is to make sure your writing is fresh um because you’re going to do you’re going to put your passion something you’ll make sure it’s the best you can possibly do and that challenge actually is quite easy because i love doing it that’s a pleasure i love i love people even people i say you might think that they might be they might be a bit i’ve used the word boring whatever but you chat and you find out what makes them tick and you go oh oh that’s interesting oh i didn’t know that okay that’s kind of cool so money is always an issue yeah um obviously that that’s something that you have to pay the bills and um even though i would consider myself creative and an arson a writer but i’m also practical and commercial so i’ve got to pay bills i know that um but the other challenge is you stay fresh and happy because you don’t want to be bored you can you know and then like boring stuff and that would be very sad yeah nobody likes sad writing yeah i get that human interest stories are the you know they sort of do uh have that fresh body i think that’s something that never goes out of style well it’s also i i have two terrestrial radio stations here at one commercial one community and i’ve guessed on the whole time and it’s my job to make them interesting it’s my job to find what makes them tick so i love doing that i like i love other people i really like and i know i’m the person we interviewed today so i’m not asking you any questions but i love other people i love it oh you did that oh that’s it oh you did that oh that’s interesting and that’s i find people endlessly fascinating yeah people can be fascinating that is uh totally true i think uh you once you you know sort of i think you get better with this uh with more people you actually tend to understand what would uh be like a point for somebody or the other and then that just makes for interesting conversation i think you just get better as as you interact with more and more people yes i think so i think so and again it comes down to a genuine love of what you’re doing and love of people that’s that’s that is if you’re bored of people it’ll come across but if you’re if you’re if you like be able to add if you love what you’re doing you never work a day in your life there’s a lot of truth in that yeah genuine curiosity and you know just just like trying to that active listening that does help because that’s where you sort of read between the lines and uh you can you know your next person can come from there i totally get that yeah absolutely 100 you’re a very active listener thank you okay so i i you you talked about money so are you uh is your platform planning an ico or uh do you have any plans of that in the offing no no and it’s interesting that isn’t it because i i was an advisor to a lot of startups last year in blockchains and they’re all doing icos the majority of them god love them all failed i mean they were good genuine people but just the market went so bad towards the end even good we’re not succeeding um so no i’m not really a fundraiser because it’s hard i’m i’m better communicating than raising funds i don’t know it’s not yet shall we say not yet i’ve just come full circle that’s a great idea i’m gonna take you up on that yeah okay so uh which was uh like the first ico that you’ve ever invested in or if you have uh i don’t actually that’s terrible i don’t actually invest but i’ve been asked to work for and um the very first one oh my goodness now um oh my goodness 2017 there was so many there was one that i was working on actively involving the equine industry here in ireland but it never got off the ground okay it got it got knotted up and that was my first uh i was actually working with the key and so you can see how you can get totally wrapped up and in stuff and then it all it just sort of imploded in the end and then i was working for another irish uh net uh message aggregation software and that kind of spalled too as well so but then on the flip side i work with i’m actually on the board of eos dublin eos now that’s very interesting it’s not without its difficulties you know whatever but the eos dublin chaps are very good and they’re launching a new gdpr compliant chain global chain uh next month and that’s interesting so i think what i found is i worked a lot of ones last year that were very um they had they were good ideas but they just they failed you know just it’s kind of sad it was a lot of them failed but the ones that didn’t fail who are still working and i’ve invested my time in them if you like they’re that’s it’s actually much more interesting now it’s less flighty it’s much more solid business now yeah right that’s absolutely true so what do you uh sort of look for perhaps in a team and you you know if you would like to say or predict if an ico is going to be a success what are the things that you look for in that particular project um i think there’s two main things well three main things is it actually solving a problem you know is it actually worthwhile is the actual overall product or project doesn’t make sense and and should it be on blockchain because sometimes they’re not making a blockchain so that’s you know looking just using your old-fashioned business acumen yeah and then secondly is the team there are a lot of very bright young people in this space but it’s nice to see some green hairs as well because you know people have young people a lot of good ideas but they haven’t done it before so they won’t know all the polls that may approach them soon yeah it’s nice i mean i have nothing against young people you know fantastic i love working with them the ideas are amazing but it’s nice to see a mentor or something in there too as well so they can get some help and then finally what is i think in terms of looking at your project an mvp or even a feature there’s never a full mvp just you know even like i’m going to build this whatever and they have something working and they can show you to you okay i can see that and they put some time and effort and whether it’s sweat equity or maybe some seed capital themselves that’s because you’re asking a few people to invest you should have invested a lot yourself as well you know time energy or maybe money and those are typical things to say is that a can you tick those boxes and then sometimes some projects are just a lot of fun because they’re making the world a better place i mean yes i want that yeah i know it’s very important i think to have skin in the game and as you said uh that that is like something that you know we look at as well uh how much skin is in the game for the people who are there working on the project there are wonderful ideas but you know how well can you execute them is is the yes and it’s not again this is not anti young people i think young people are amazing obviously and it’s great to work with people because they’ve got such energy and they’ve new ways of thinking they really do it’s like i’ve got old ways of thinking that i’m trying to unlearn myself and i’m thinking myself but people they go oh i go oh i never thought of that oh i never thought of that so it’s amazing but by the same token they haven’t been down that road before so they don’t know what lies ahead of them and they don’t know what to do with the hit a gate or they hit a bump in the road whatever so that’s where i say just a little bit of gray hair this is what you tend to do this is how you get beyond that it’s a little above balance i think that you know you should have like the right kind of experience as well to back up those very exciting ideas so that the execution is actually bang on and you reach a sort of you don’t have set out to go yeah i would i would agree with that yeah so uh how do you perceive uh women participation in this uh space because uh you know i i i feel that you know women are not highlighted in general in the tech space and the blockchain or deep tech space it usually becomes um they become even more red hot so what what is your perception it’s very tough at the moment there’s it’s like is it four percent women active in the space it’s crazy this is way too important to let men rule it and we have that recent example with nasa where the two women were meant to do a wall yeah yeah because i’ve got that is the reason you’re going to give us that you know you don’t have a proper suit for women it was unbelievable unbelievable there are loads of examples of where um it’s because men rule the world there’s lots of women are you know in medicine the medicines are judged on the male form you know a male body yeah it was tested on the men and and you know people design things they design car seats for men not for women because women have breasts you know i’m sure there’s a way of locking them into a car that you know and um so there’s lots of things in this world that are skewed skewed because women are not involved yeah and this is too important yeah and i think that you know women uh women in leadership positions they’re in for all spaces not just in the blockchain space i think we bring in a lot of empathy as well which somehow you know become it becomes as you said because if it is skewed and the gender ratio is skewed then that empathy is not there and the kind of toxic masculinity that kind of leadership sort of you know uh has its way and uh it’s very important to have more and more women to participate but how would you suggest that perhaps we can get more girls and women into stem or blockchain in general well i do a lot of talking in this area i’m giving a talk next week after next at that blockchain island week about women and women and blockchain yeah and as well like i’m i’ve decided only to be recently i have to go outside the blockchain environment so i’m going to talk in schools i want to talk at festivals that are mind and body and soul you know and i’m not that i’m not techie i’m looking actively looking for lots of places to start talking about this and just start demystifying it and women women tend to hand back because it women it’s seen as nerdy and girls especially at that very uh you know sensitive age when they’re teenagers and stuff they kind of back off from that sometimes it’s not you know it’s just it doesn’t happen so much and also women are risk averse typically so because it’s been so clumsy scheme i got up not getting involved with that you know so there’s a perception we have to do but i think i think it’s almost on us all to say this is a good thing and to to speak wherever we can yeah right so i i think you know you’re again right on there and it it actually just keeps coming down to a more uh you know uh information being sort of disseminated in a way that people can actually understand it and not adopt to this particular technology yeah i think so i think the more we talk about it and it’s not we need to we the owners on us both as women and as blockchain advocates it’s not just talk within the bubble you have to get outside the bubble and talk to people and even if they’re going oh don’t talk to us we don’t want to hear about it you know talk about it yeah i know i have some friends who go stop talking about the funny money the magic beans i’m like well let me tell you this story today instead no i think they put their hands over their ears don’t talk to me don’t talk to me they they boy they’re gonna regret that if they miss out on this particular train and as you said in in a i i see it like you know in probably like the next few years it’s going to be a tipping point where everybody’s going to really realize uh the the value that a blockchain and uh you know you can bring to the world yes i think so i think so it’s just we have to and the onus is on us yeah like i did for the elections because i was talking about i’m not ashamed of failing financially we have to you know talk about these things yeah there’s a big move in our arms talk about mental health because you know you stole the words out of my mouth i was just about to say mental health is again you know yeah we have to talk about things like that so there was um um you know the suicide around stigma over suicide uh self-harm mental health all those things and disabilities there’s a whole you need to talk about stuff and you talk about stuff then you become inclusive and it’s not them and us anymore it’s it’s yeah it is definitely not about them with us and you know people sort of perceive it like that and that perception has to be dismantled and i think that can only be done by giving out the right information yes yeah so that’s that’s our job yeah that’s our job yeah uh so how has your experience been advocating for blockchain in various countries which country do you think is friendliest to innovation and blockchain in your opinion well you see each time i’ve gone and i’ve been to quite a few countries not extensive but i mean i’ve been in kiev and oman and sri lanka dubai and texas and amsterdam and london so quite a few at cape town but i’m going to conferences that are blockchain conferences so of course i’m being you know they’re getting a very welcoming reception and the countries are at different stages with their governments whatever so it’s hard to judge the temperature of a country based on those conferences because they are blockchain conferences exactly so every every one there is all very excited that’s that’s the bubble thing so the more i think about it the more i realize it’s important to get on to the other you know fashion channels i don’t know beauty channels things that i don’t normally go to you know and to start you know outside the need to get so that’s your question sorry i can’t really take the temperature because every time i’ve been to these different countries i’ve been surrounded by like-minded people yeah that that’s true you know that actually as you know it’s it’s uh because when you go to that conference obviously there are all of those enthusiasts and you cannot really gauge the right perception of the policy makers etc that i you know i understand but uh nevertheless if you have to sort of choose uh one country or uh one government which is sort of doing it right who would that be in your opinion um well i think some of the flagship companies that are doing it very well is switzerland’s doing very well and they have the crypto valley there of course and then um malta isle of mange broad any of those um tax haven islands if you like are doing quite well because you know that yeah and that’s also because if you think about it if you’re if you’re raising a lot of money in crypto it because it’s so it’s so hard to to figure out what you’re meant to do with taxation and governments haven’t quite decided yet you’re going to go to a financial friendly site so that they are belarus estonia and estonia actually estonia because flag bearer uh of how things should be done yeah i i have a friend who we do crypto divas with and um the story she tells me about the government in estonia and i’ve seen reports about actually i still there estonia is like my favorite and they’re doing the most they’re planning to or they have recently held elections as well using blockchain i think i was reading that somewhere and i’m just mighty impressed by the kind of steps that their government has taken which are very pro you know they’re just trying to be more inclusive about the technology rather than sort of isolating it entirely or just labeling it as i want to be together so yeah well i think as because they have a rather aggressive neighbor in russia but whatever works so i i’m all for it i think that they’re taking uh very uh big you know those tiny steps are actually you know adding up to estonia being a complete flag bearer i think in this space yes yeah they’re gonna get my top push yeah yeah so uh what would be like your top five learnings and uh you know that you could share with our community in the blockchain or crypto space learn well always learn maybe that’s top one yeah it’s actually backed up by big science and neuroscience if you are learning the whole time it keeps your brain alive you get these new neural pathways and it’s very good for you for your for your overall being and your youth and your health and all the rest but so um yeah um i don’t know do you wanna i think the biggest thing that i have learned my learning is that i love feeling optimistic without feeling flaky yeah you know that like i’m a snowflake i actually genuinely i love that’s a really nice place to live in because i’m you know people say oh you’re hippy dippy i’m going no we can’t make the world a better place so that’s a very powerful thing to learn that you can you know because you know when you’re a child you want to be an astronaut you want to save the world whatever and then you can become a grown up and it’s all knocked out of you you know you want you want to be an accountant or something like that you know and you want to have a your garden and your 2.4 kids whatever but what i love the biggest learning is a all the learning but be the permission to be optimistic about this world and the permission to think that what i’m doing is making a difference that’s a big big thing isn’t it because normally you you’re perceived as being aggressive or arrogant whatever but no i can make a difference wow that’s that’s a really big thing and it’s not it’s not a grandissimo thing or it’s not a you know an aggrandizement or it’s not me being boastful but i can make a difference yeah that’s very everybody can i think and having that face is so important because otherwise you’re just sort of in your comfort zone right you’re just sitting there thinking that you cannot do anything and that is just not a very happy place to be and i completely agree that it’s not about being hippy and you know it’s just about having that little uh i’m going to use a word that people don’t like it in the tech space having a little faith and it doesn’t have to be in you know in a figure or a god it can be just in yourself that you know you can make a difference you can make that change because ultimately sorry no it’s i said ultimately it is about individuals yeah i think your point is very well made because um you’re having faith in yourself and you know what if you think you can make a difference you’ll do a little bit better yeah there’s the stuff writing and what you do you know so it’s i’m not saying you’ll be superman but if you think that you can make a difference well then you up your game automatically yeah you will work a little harder a little smarter just so that you know you can prove your own vision right yeah no it’s it’s it’s a very powerful thing yeah to think you are part of something that makes a difference absolutely i think that is how you know so many huge communities are sort of they come together right i think uh all communities come together because you know they think that they are part of something that is so much bigger than themselves and yes yeah and the nice thing is that uh someone else mentioned this too as well and i’m just thinking about it but they were talking they were saying you know your nationality comes because of where you’re born yeah and it’s kind of an arbitrary thing really and it’s formed by the common history and you know but if you were the same child was born in a different country they’d be quite different you know so it’s quite arbitrary to think that you’re kind of like your feeling of nationality and your tribalism comes from where you’re born but that same child could be supplanted in different country and quite different same child different things anyway so in that so it’s class suppression our border is so important and then you have communities that don’t rely on geography yeah but rely on belief and i don’t mean i’m not getting into the religious side of things just a bit different but just communities of people who think alike and i think that’s interesting yeah yeah i’m not sure what’s making better i think but i like it i like it yeah no it’s i think very important to be around people who uh you know who have who are coming up with new ideas who are innovating or who sort of have uh similar beliefs and in terms of as you said you know that you know we can make a change together uh it doesn’t have to be it’s not religious it’s just that belief in yourself and believe that uh that you know you can make your life better yeah i mean a humanist i guess isn’t it you know you’re believing in human beings yeah yeah but you know we are so dictated by geographies but you know thankfully now the world is becoming you know smaller uh technology which is great but there are still people with these perceptions in mind and i think that that kind of just limits their own vision of their life and what they can do as a people yeah there is that yeah i mean i’m a very proud irish woman and we’re playing rugby i’m cheering for ireland and you know i love irish writers and all that but it’s nice to think that i can be a citizen of the world as well and i can you know that’s that’s a nice feeling that that’s possible yeah that you can you know you’re as it again comes down to your part something bigger than just you know the geography confines you too so i think that’s very important yeah and what i like too as well is that here we are having this conversation oh yeah that’s interesting you know you don’t normally this is you don’t normally have those conversations during the working day you’re doing figures you’re not saying about oh what does the world look like and what if we’re all global citizens what does that mean yeah talking about all this is obviously very fascinating uh so how has your experience been working in a startup uh like that that would be a sort of a departure from your uh fintech uh you know career and now you’re working your own startup how has your experience been i much prefer i’m i’m genuinely an entrepreneur and the last time i worked for jp morgan and i worked for iona technologies here on at the 80s oh no 2000 sorry but um the rest of the time i’ve always had my own company and i’ve always worked in startups and what i love about them is the pay is a bit dodgy sometimes it’s all money thing you know i haven’t cracked the money thing but i love the freedom and i love being an entrepreneur means you work all the hours that god gives you but you also have freedom you know so if i want to go i actually have another call after this and then i’m going for a walk you know i think if sometimes if you’re in an office it’s very hard or you’re employed by somebody else so and also being a start it’s interesting you know and you meet other people and it’s yeah i i like that i like that this lifestyle and i work from home mostly i mean yesterday in france i was in dublin all day it’s a two-hour drive so it’s a bit of a pain maybe 30 euros in parking so i was a bit painful yeah it was interesting i had a great day but mostly i’m at home and that’s nice too as well i have freedoms i can get up go to bed when i want whatever you know so i i like that flexibility in my lifestyle yeah yeah i think that is what most entrepreneurs sort of why they choose this particular part they like the freedom that comes along with it uh so if if in a parallel universe if you’re not doing this what can you sort of imagine yourself doing oh and i do hope to do it next um writing i’ve written several books um but i have not been commercially successful yet so um what i’m hoping to do i’ve written about six books actually so i know how to write a book i mean and they’re quite well-made books um but my next thing is actually this is kind of funny i wrote in 2013 when i was very very broke and i my business collapsed and bailiffs came in and it was just so painful because of the divorce and the recession together and so at the same time the fastest selling book in the world was el james 50 shades so i thought i could write a better book than that yeah i wrote a i wrote a trilogy of erotica in 2013 actually very well very well written i have to say and um so i um i really enjoyed doing that and i put it all because it’s not just ordinary it’s all got it’s got feminism and it’s got activism it’s all about arms all kind of crazy whatever but what i did was then i’ve rewritten it now and i’m calling it confessions of a cryptomaniac so well that that is fun my mom has read it my mom is a very uh open-minded woman she’s 88 she’s amazing lady and she read it it was well written well written she didn’t like parts whatever but what’s interesting is that my mom is terribly open-minded and very non-judgmental she’s amazing but she can’t really tell her friends that her daughter right or wrote erotica it’s not really they look a bit uh you know scantily so i have to write the next thing i have to do when i get sorted i have to write a novel that my mom can share with her friends wow okay that’s that’s so you do you intend to uh sort of have you published anything so far uh like uh have you self-published any book um can you yeah i’ve self-published quite a few that i did i come to children’s books and then the trilogy of the original trilogy was published the um oh the cougar diaries part one two and three by ifa brennan okay and then i’ve rewritten the first one to the confessions of cryptomaniac so i’ve written a couple of memoirs too as well but so but i need to write the book that my mom’s gonna love so and i have loads of ideas i have loads of ideas i just need the time right yeah you’ll make the time i’m pretty sure so all these uh the books that you’ve written they’re available say on amazon or uh you know somewhere absolutely yeah no i can i can send you links as well afterwards if people want to have a i always say i want to understand what i was like during the crash you can and enjoy erotica add it up to the description and you know people can perhaps look at those uh as well yes i’ll send you the links it’s super exciting uh okay so uh you know i’ve come down i think uh to my penultimate question so who are your uh perhaps you know top leaders or influencers basically who you admire in this space who you sort of just follow i mean cc jumping from as our from finance right yeah i like him a lot um i interviewed him last year he’s probably too big for me to interview now but he he’s a very sad businessman and visionary amazing man um i follow tim draper of course yeah um don mcafee is i follow him too yeah and then i like people like dan larimer and thomas cox yeah thinking people um yes there’s quite a lot when those people speak i normally listen you know and i’ll follow what they’re saying and what they’re talking about because you know i think they they they have something to say yeah and they do have that kind of influence it’s gonna like sort of you don’t have an impact on the market as well on this field in general yeah yeah no they’re i mean like in terms of businessmen like cc is just amazing he’s just i i am in awe of that man and what he does you know he doesn’t always get it right but he he he makes it right he’s phenomenal yeah okay uh so but uh you know what about some female influencers do you have any female top leaders that you’re following or you know i listen if she’s following you’d want to give them a heads up oh well you know who i love uh tony uh lane casterly i was a casterly lady i got her mixed up she’s with she us okay and i’ve spoken to her once i need to i want to speak to her again um an amazing mind really is she’s she’s very very powerful and uh and very very impressed with her she’s phenomenal okay excellent uh so now my last question that’s why sorry i beg your pardon that’s why we need we need more more women and it’s not terrible you asked me and i named like five men yeah yeah no it’s it’s it’s fine that is why i have to follow a question for females because usually you’re 100 right i’m i’m actually shocked at myself i’m shocked and ashamed no do not be the numbers are very skewed you know it’s difficult to sort of uh come up with at the top of our own hands to come up with a female influence as against a male influence because there’s so many of them right yes yeah you tend to say that those names before that’s why i have to follow a question that you don’t care who are the female ones that you sort of follow because that is what you know we are trying to do here push more uh women in this space and obviously throw you know light on the women who are already in this space and we’re not getting their due yes yeah absolutely so uh now my last question how do you think uh you know end users can effectively live on blockchain and crypto like what do you think that they can do for like the first two three steps that they can take when in which uh you know in your opinion that would help them sort of get in the space or start living on blockchain okay well the do you know what i gave a talk last year um again with the focus and afterwards a lot of women came to me after it said well how can i get involved you know i’m a lawyer i’m an accountant i’m a whatever and i wanted two programmers there who actually were actively involved and i said to them do you know what whatever you’re doing just take it into the blockchain space because there is a need is that there’s a whole ecosystem there that needs lawyers and accountants and secretaries and marketeers prs and writers and whatever i mean whatever happens in the in the in the old world is needed in the new world yeah and and then and then how do they get involved because you know that’s obviously a bit more harder i said well go to meetups there’s meetups on the whole time yeah start listening podcasts like this one yeah start reading stuff and then you know even on linkedin put in blockchain advocate yeah see what happens you know because when you start to look at an area opportunities will arise yeah and you know there are more and more like the consensus are hiring again you know there’s there’s movement there are jobs they’re interesting apparently last year on linkedin a majority of jobs that were growing still were um were an it but in blockchain people who works in blockchain could could command a premium if your program is a program you could command a premium uh you know another 40 on top of the other other other salaries but it’s just whatever it is you’re doing because presumably you like what you’re doing or maybe you don’t maybe it’s all for a career change but if you like what you’re doing just take that into the blockchain world and that’s and increasingly there will be jobs coming on stream all over the place but go to meetups start your own startup you know or just reach out to people if you have a skill reach out to somebody locally and say can we work together can we do something can i help you yeah i think reaching out is a huge part uh you know people are usually just sort of plagued by fear and they get uh they just sort of stop themselves from you know taking that step or you know just moving a little ahead because they just think that fear so i think all of us need to sort of believe in ourselves and sort of stop believing in the fear aspect of our lives and then just take that leap yes i think so because if like we said earlier about startups what will happen someone will say no yeah fine you know and i say they might say no for good reasons or for just weird reasons that you have no idea about you know nothing to do with it whatsoever true and and perhaps you’ll you’ll refine your approach the next time maybe you know that noise oh maybe they said no because you know whatever xyz reason and then yeah you can absolutely refine your approach if you said excellent uh so this has been such a wonderful conversation it’s like you know we were meeting for a high tea and i’m so happy that uh you know with the relevant insights that you you brought to the table and uh it’s just been a wonderful overall i i’m just uh odd it’s it’s amazing thank you so much for um again taking out the time and speaking to me in case you have any last thoughts i would be happy to hear them well i just say it’s been a pleasure and give me an opportunity to talk about blockchain and this world and cryptocurrencies i’m happy so you made me very happy the last hour thank you so much you you know you and i both we are both very happy girls here and i wish you all the best for your venture and i hope we can sort of synergize and you know in some way and help each other further with you know further this movement of blockchain together brilliant aloha thank you so much it’s been an absolute pleasure thank you so much jillian wow that was such an excellent chat i’m sure that there was something in it for everybody in case you have any follow-up questions for jillian or for me for that matter or any suggestions please do write to us using the forum which is available in the contact us page on livingonblockchain.com uh now to give you a little bit of a recap for the next episode we’ll be talking about the very fundamentals what is bitcoin what is blockchain you can um tune in now on anchors fortify google podcast breakfast and radio public that is uh where our podcast is available for now uh this particular episode is coming in next week do tune in uh do check out our website as well and subscribe because we do share some exclusive content over newsletters the website is www.livingonblockchain.com until then keep living on blockchain