Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Karen. Karen is the CMO of Fiat24.
Fiat24 is a Swiss fintech company licensed by FINMA, which is the Swiss financial regulator. She brings a wealth of experience in marketing, design, content creation, because she’s a podcaster and a content creator as well. She’s leveraged her background in web 2 advertising and content marketing to get so far here in her journey.
Fiat24 as a platform is a company that is focused on extending crypto wallets with accounts and payment services, enabling users to really manage both crypto as well as their fiat assets seamlessly. So this was, again, I’m very lucky. This is another very, very interesting conversation with her.
It’s always very exciting to speak to fellow women in the space and also women who are so passionate about what they are building. So that really comes through in this particular conversation. Fiat24 is really trying to change the way fiat and crypto integration systems work.
And that is what is more exciting. They have super exciting partnerships coming along with MasterCard and with Visa. They are truly trying to adhere to the premise that DeFi is for the unbanked and helping them get banked, so to say.
So a very interesting conversation. I can’t wait for you guys to hear this. Let’s deep dive right in.
We can start. Hi, Karen.
Thank you so much for making the time to speak to me today. How are you doing? Thanks for inviting me. Yes, I’m doing really well, thanks.
It’s really nice to be here. Likewise. I’m so glad that we could make the time, both of us, and talk about your journey.
So let’s get started right from there. Can you tell us a little about your journey into Web3 and the crypto space and what kind of inspired you to get involved in this industry? Yeah, sure. So actually my background is really in advertising in the Web2 sector.
So I spent the first years out of college working at different advertising agencies and I worked on campaigns for like supermarkets and banks and fashion brands. But I eventually got more interested in social media as a tool for storytelling and I got more into digital marketing, which I studied. And as I started to look for a new position, I saw that Fiat 24 was hiring their first marketing manager.
And as soon as I started reading about DeFi and blockchain, I just got hooked immediately. I’m sure I’ll have a chance later to elaborate more on like what excites me about it. But yeah, I mean, I got offered this position and now it’s two years later and I’m still here leading all of the marketing and branding activities.
But in general, I really believe in DeFi and all of the power and possibility that it has to really serve the unbanked or underbanked people around the world. Right. So yeah, absolutely.
I think people who get into Web3, usually this is one of the many reasons why they kind of stay, because you’re able to explore the possibility of really backing the unbanked and really look at the traditional financial system and pit it against this new system that is being created, which in my opinion, it only adds to the traditional system and makes it better. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think DeFi has already made some really big strides, but I think the evolution is just kind of at the beginning.
But yeah, I think it’s quite exciting to see all this innovation. Like we’re seeing the development of more sophisticated financial products and things that just kind of work well and better than what traditional finance can offer, I think. Right.
Yeah, absolutely. I think this does give an added advantage. As I said, I think it just makes the traditional system a little better.
So now taking a step back, I would love to know a little more about what Fiat24 does and also what excites you about this space. And apart from perhaps the conventional reasons that you are helping bank the unbanked, is there something else entirely, which is very personal to you, that really keeps you on your toes about the space? Well, OK, I think when I look at Web3 in general and not just like the niche aspect of DeFi, I think Web3 has the potential, if it’s possible, that we could make it a reality, which I’m not sure it can. But I think it’s very cool because, I mean, personally, I’ve always been quite against these corporations like Google, for example, or Amazon.
I think that they are quite scary. Like if you stop and think about how much of your privacy and your data that you give them in exchange for these services that they’ve built for us, which are so convenient, like Gmail or Google Drive or Google Maps. But, you know, if you think about how much power they have, it’s quite scary.
So for me, like the main driver is also Web3 at large. Yeah. No, I completely agree with what you’re saying, that, you know, these larger corporations have too much power, you know, at least in this day and age.
And that needs to be perhaps brought down a notch. And I’m not, there’s nothing, I don’t have anything against these corporations. I just feel that people should at least be aware that a lot of what they’re doing and their decision making is being influenced by these, you know, larger corporations.
And your data is perhaps being utilized in XYZ ways. Yeah, for sure. Maybe I can also touch on what you asked about what we are doing at Fiat24.
Yes. So I think it’s, I could explain it best in a three kind of layered approach. So first of all, we are a Swiss regulated financial institution.
So we are governed by the Swiss banking law. And from a technical perspective, we are the only licensed fintech bank that has fully replaced servers with a public blockchain, which we use to book all of our client ledgers. So we’re using Arbitrum, which is Ethereum’s layer two, to run our core banking system.
And finally, what it means for you as the user, is that you get access to a global payment dApp. And we transform your favorite non-custodial crypto wallet into an e-banking portal. So that you can use, for example, your MetaMask directly to convert your crypto assets into fiat money and then spend using our Visa debit card.
So our goal is to make a very DeFi and Web3 friendly way to spend your crypto. So that’s kind of in a nutshell what we do. Okay, that’s wonderful.
So basically making it easier for people to be able to spend their crypto in real time. Is that correct? Yeah, because currently, you know, your non-custodial crypto wallet is good for storing your tokens and your NFTs. But off-ramping and, you know, putting your assets to good use in that way is very complex and costly.
If you think about what it would take for you to cash out from your MetaMask, for example. So we really simplify that process for you so that you can go inside your MetaMask, access Fiat24 and just like do everything inside your MetaMask. Well, that is, you know, user friendly as well.
That the entire user experience would be far easier than perhaps going ahead and, you know, starting to learn how an app works from scratch. Yeah. That’s wonderful.
So can you tell me a little bit more about perhaps the core mission, you know, behind Fiat24 because you are the CMO. You can tell us a little about the mission and, you know, just the kind of USP that it brings in this crypto Fiat integration space. Yeah.
Well, I think if you are, if you have been in DeFi for a while, you’ve probably experienced that crypto to Fiat conversion has always been an issue. And especially in recent years, like centralized crypto exchanges, such as Coinbase. I mean, they have been gradually improving the process, but it’s not really giving a perfect solution for the DeFi world.
So what I mean, our goal is really to create something for the people who don’t feel comfortable storing their assets in centralized exchanges, people that prefer to have more control and ownership of their private keys. And so, I mean, our target is really for these crypto DeFi natives who have been in the game for a while and who really want to put their crypto to good use, I would say. So we’re trying to meet this kind of gap in the market.
Right. So what about the people who seem to think that, you know, they want to perhaps utilize crypto more as an investment, rather than a medium of exchange? Like, what is your perspective there? Because there are a bunch of people who believe that crypto should remain, perhaps, as an investment asset class. Yeah, that’s very interesting, actually.
And I was just reading an article in the last couple of days, which points out that, you know, in developing economies like India, Nigeria, and Vietnam, you know, those are the economies that populate, you know, much of the crypto adoption index. And I think if you look at the higher income people, they tend to view crypto as an investment to grow wealth, but the lower income demographics or people in Latin America, for example, where their currency is really volatile and they have problems to even hold or store or use even USD, then those people, you know, use crypto for payments, you know, to send money internationally and as a hedge against inflation. And I think, actually, this is kind of what the power of cryptocurrency and the beauty of maybe why it was created in the first place.
I mean, of course, people can hold it. If you live in, for example, Switzerland, where we have a very stable currency, it’s normal that, you know, we are quite well served and we don’t have that need. But actually, I think cryptocurrency has this opportunity and power to revolutionize, you know, in developing countries, economies.
So to offer a lifeline to people with unstable governments and mitigating inflation risks and enabling them to do these seamless cross-border money transfers. Yes, absolutely. I think crypto does have the power.
Like when we talk about banking the unbanked, we actually mean folks who perhaps are struggling with their currency, not just folks who do not have like bank accounts, but also folks who are perhaps struggling with their existing currency. And crypto gives them a different path, an option at the very least, which they can perhaps explore. Yeah, it is quite important.
Yeah. Absolutely. In this day and age, I think it is one of the more important things, considering the geopolitical situation that we all find ourselves in.
Oh no, actually. Yeah, actually, you know, I’ve seen that we’ve all experienced too, that now it’s also quite common in many European Union countries like Germany and Spain and Italy. You know, they’re also experiencing a lot of inflation.
So in a way, it’s good for crypto because this kind of this inflation maybe makes people question the value of fiat money and start to be curious about alternatives. So I would say maybe it used to be more developing countries. Now, even in Europe, we see there’s a cost of living crisis and inflation problems also here.
Right. Yeah, I think this is not like, crypto doesn’t just solve problems for weaker economies, but also economies that are perhaps going through a certain change and, you know, they’re in the process. So I do truly believe that and I completely concur with you.
Now, coming back to, you know, your platform, can you, because there are other platforms that do allow crypto to fiat sort of transactions. Can you tell us a little about the jurisdictions that you serve in? That is one. And two, can you also tell us a little about the USP? If somebody is a, you know, if a user signs up on your platform, what is the one unique, you know, selling proposition that you would have for him? Yeah, so maybe I will start with the second part first.
Actually, if you are a new client, you first need to mint to our fiat 24 NFT, which is something that is quite a big USP because we have, we are recreating e-banking on the blockchain, which means in a web three way, which means that we are also replacing the traditional password and login kind of email address access with an NFT. And the NFT serves to identify all of the clients in our ecosystem it just gives you your account number and it holds all of the metadata associated with your account. So that is something that is quite unique about it.
And your second question was, what was the other part of this question? Sure. So the other part of the question primarily was, you know, we wanted you to talk and touch upon a little about the USP and we wanted to understand from you, what is your perhaps perspective around the your traditional financial systems and how you feel, perhaps you can give some specific examples as to how DeFi is revolutionizing finance. Yeah.
Okay. Well, in terms of how DeFi is already and has the potential to revolutionize finance. I would say, as I already mentioned, like there is the opportunities of being more financially inclusive around the world.
And actually it’s quite cool to see that many central banks around the world are exploring the concept of central bank digital currencies or CBDCs, which is something quite cool. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. No, I mean, in general, how I see it happening is we’ve seen like a lot of regulatory interest, like from a lot of different countries around the world. In Europe, you have the MICA framework and the US are cracking down hard, as we know, even like in different DeFi protocols.
But somehow this kind of the world of TradFi cannot ignore this anymore. And for the people that are using, for example, stable coins like USDC, like we are feeling like the impact of how much more convenient it is to use them instead of just. If you have to send, do an international transfer through your bank, you have to wait several days.
You know, you have to pay something. It’s not convenient. If I want to send you at this moment from Switzerland to India, some crypto, you will get it instantly.
When you just look at the most basic functionalities, it’s not hard to see what the advantages are. Yeah. Can you tell us a little about the jurisdictions that you’re serving in? Oh, yeah, sure.
So for now, to mint our NFT, of course, that can be done by anyone around the world. And to access some of our DApp services, it’s open to actually quite a wide variety of countries around the world, which can all be seen on our website. And the Visa debit card can currently just be used in the EU and Switzerland.
But this summer, we will also announce our MasterCard partnership, which will allow us to serve many more regions in the world, including Canada, Latin America, and some parts of Asia, which is really exciting. Wow. Yeah, that is super exciting.
So that kind of takes care of one of my next questions, that what is the one bigger milestone that you’re looking forward to? I’m sure that this is the milestone that you’re looking forward to as the CMO of Fiat 24. Yes, because since we launched our card last summer, we have gotten a lot of attention and a lot of interest. And for now, we have only been able to serve the EU.
And we also have some great partnerships with some wallets, which are more Southeast Asia focused, such as Halo Wallet and SafePal. And we would really love to be able to serve those users. So, of course, it’s going to be a game changer because we can really become a much more global payment app.
Right. This is wonderful. So can you walk us through perhaps and give us a bit of like an overview of how the payment app of Fiat 24 works and how it kind of transforms crypto wallets into e-banking platforms? So I would love to get like an overview.
Yeah. So basically, users can access all of our services by minting our NFT, which you can get on our website. So you can choose the account number that you prefer or just, you know, get whichever one you like.
And let’s say you open your Metamask. There’s a browser. You go to our website inside the browser in your Metamask and you have to connect your wallet, mint the NFT and pass just a few simple steps of KYC, which we have to do because we are a regulated financial institution.
And after you have passed the KYC, it looks like your traditional e-banking kind of portal that you would get from any bank. And that includes that you get a Swiss IBAN account in your name. You can top it up using both Fiat money and the crypto that you have in the associated wallet.
And you can do peer-to-peer payments. You can do Forex. You can top up your Visa debit card, which is only digital.
So it’s inside your Apple Pay or Google Pay. So that’s kind of, I mean, it is quite a simple process. And we also purposefully try to keep it short and simple.
Right. Pretty straightforward then. You know, the entire process end-to-end and it just makes the entire experience of perhaps spending your crypto so much more easier and seamless.
So can we, I would love to talk a little bit more about the integration with Visa on Arbitrum because that sounds really exciting. Can you explain that a little bit, elaborate on it and how it kind of benefits users as well as your platform? Yeah. So, you know, we chose to build on Arbitrum already when we first started building Fiat24, which was back in 2021.
And, you know, of course we wanted to go with an approach or a layer that would support a payment DAP in the sense that if you do transactions on layer one, it’s the gas fees are incredibly high. So we decided to go with Arbitrum, which we believed already since now it’s already like, I guess a couple or two or three years that we have believed that it was going to be a successful and stable ecosystem. And as you know, over the past, maybe since November of last year, Arbitrum has grown massively and become a lot more popular.
Right. So our co-founders are actually ex-bankers and one of them used to build the core banking system at a private bank. And it was his idea that we could make something far more efficient.
So we chose to replace the traditional kind of just like servers, distributed servers, by replacing it with a public blockchain to make it more transparent, more efficient. We rely more on smart contracts and less on people. Right, yes.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that is the way to go, relying more on smart contracts, less on people that leaves little room forever and more efficiency gets driven into the process. Can you also perhaps tell us a little about, because you are ultimately going to be serving a global audience and right now, as you mentioned, your NFT can be obviously minted by anybody from anywhere in the world.
What are the kind of challenges that you foresee in catering to users from diverse regions with varying regulatory environments? Yeah, I mean, well, as we’ve seen, that now the latest news, the SEC is going after Uniswap Labs, which is kind of crazy because there is no one, no one kind of entity controlling it. And if we look at the DeFi space in general, we do think that it has to be far more, some regulation is necessary, right, to clean up the space and to protect investors at large. So I think that’s something that is really quite important.
And as someone who is regulated and licensed, we have an opportunity to bridge this gap between DeFi and TradFi, like identifying all our clients via their Fiat24 NFT and doing KYC is just, you know, some people don’t like it, but it’s just, you know, a very necessary part of when you’re trying to deal with your finances, you know. So, yeah, I think it will continue just to be a challenge in general. So, okay.
And do you have, do you have any intention as a platform to get licensed elsewhere as well in the coming days? Can you repeat your question? Sure. I was asking you whether as a platform, do you have intentions to get licensed in other jurisdictions as well? No, we don’t. I mean, I think having our Swiss license covers us pretty well.
So, as I said, we are currently allowed to serve people within the EU and with our MasterCard partnership, we will be able to, you know, further expand our regions. Then, of course, if there’s the question of if we can serve everyone in the world, I don’t think it will be possible because the US has its own unique challenges and tax system that provides, you know, challenges. If you look at countries like Russia or North Korea, perhaps those countries are also not going to be able to be served.
But our general hope is that we will be able to serve most people in the world. Right, right, absolutely. This is sounding very, very, you know, exciting, like as a platform for you that, you know, you’ve already partnered with Visa and you’re going to be partnering with MasterCard, your license in Switzerland.
So, what is next? Like, how do you intend to perhaps innovate or bring some kind of new features on the platform? Is that in the offing at all? I don’t think we have plans to, this year at least, to offer new services, but our plan is to really become the fiat infrastructure layer for DeFi because a lot of different protocols, including non-custodial wallets and stablecoin issuers and DEXs, I think they have a lot of community members who could use this kind of easy off-ramp service, but for these protocols to be able to do it themselves takes a lot of time and money and also perhaps applying to be regulated in some way. So, our focus is really to partner up with some of the best players in the space so that we can bring our services to more communities in the Web3 space. Right.
Wonderful. So, you’re also now taking a step back away from the platform perhaps and talking a little about your own personal journey in Web3. You’re a podcast host, you speak at several events, you’re also a content creator.
How do you leverage these platforms to share insights and engage with blockchain and crypto communities and what would you say is the best way for our listeners to be able to catch your content? Well, I would say I have noticed since I started in this space that one of the key components in this space for all of our combined success is education and sharing our knowledge and our experiences. So, that’s really like the impetus for me to create content. And on a personal level, I just enjoy talking to people and networking and also partnering up and working together.
So, I am also volunteering in a few other projects for that purpose too. And I think it’s just really important that we share news and tips and bring attention to other people who are doing cool stuff in this space. Because maybe Web3 from the outside seems quite small, like your average person on the street doesn’t really know what Web3 is.
But once you’re in it, I think it could be… You can sometimes feel like it’s quite a saturated space. So, it’s good to highlight people or projects that are doing cool things. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that is very important.
Yeah, if people want to get in touch or follow me, it’s best, probably LinkedIn is my most popular channel. And my podcast is something that I unfortunately have limited time to do, but I would like to do it more. And I hope to find the time to put more effort into it.
Brilliant. So can you tell us a little bit more about your involvement with Crypto Mondays Zurich and other such marketing initiatives? And how do you think do these activities contribute to Fiat24’s industry presence? Yeah, so Crypto Mondays is really cool. Actually, Crypto Mondays is something that is a global initiative and it started in New York.
So it’s like a monthly meetup in all these big cities around the world so that people can come together. There’s a speaker about a certain topic and then you can all learn something new and ask questions and make friends. So I’m really happy to support them because I attended their events for like a year and a half before they asked if I could give them a hand, which I’m happy to do.
I also do support, for example, the Swiss FinTech Association because we are a member there. And I’m happy to lend my help because it’s a nonprofit organization where I can. And in fact, I think that in Switzerland, people do know Fiat24 quite a lot because of our presence and we’re very active in many communities.
And I think it’s important because, you know, it’s not just about trying to sell something. It’s also about being very present where you live and where you’re based. So it’s quite important.
Brilliant. Yeah, I think, you know, having such events and meeting your peer group, your fellow builders, that can obviously be a learning opportunity, but also it can create a support system of sorts, right, for builders especially. Yeah, I think that’s quite important.
Just a couple of weeks ago, there was Ethereum Zurich. And during this few days conference, we also held an Arbitrum-based event. And it was really cool because it was like a lot of developers and builders who came.
And we had people from Arbitrum Foundation and Arbitrum Grant Program. So people could really ask questions and learn a lot. And it’s good to see this kind of stuff.
Right. Yeah, it’s wonderful. So can you now perhaps tell us a little about your opinion on the space in general? People say that we went to another bull market and we are very close to the Bitcoin halving, actually, as we are recording this.
So what is your opinion on the trends in this space? Yeah, the Bitcoin halving will be quite interesting to see, will be the first one that I’m aware of because I am still quite new in the space. But I think I’ve spoken to like a lot of people. And I think one of the most hot trends and exciting topics this year, it does kind of have to be crypto payments.
We’ve seen over the last couple of years more companies like Microsoft and Starbucks and Subway. They’re all actively embracing cryptocurrency transactions. And besides that, we’ve seen that consumer demands are also shifting.
So people like more and more to use their phone to pay, like, for example, their Apple Pay. People like to be more digital. And I hope that the more people that become aware about crypto, you know, like the more that it begins to be used as a payment, which is what it was intended for.
Right. Yeah. Awesome.
Can you also perhaps recommend some thought leaders or books that, you know, our listeners should, according to you, key into to get the right kind of information with the space? Or that you follow? Yeah, to be honest, there’s it’s not like there’s one person specifically that I follow. Yeah, I have been surprised to find that something as kind of Web 2 and corporate as LinkedIn is surprisingly a really good platform to connect with people about Web 3. And I have made some really useful and helpful connections on LinkedIn. And apart from that, I’m always on crypto Twitter, of course, which I think is still, you know, very active in a great way to stay in touch with what’s happening.
And apart from that, I do read like just a lot of the usual kind of financial publications, whether it’s mainstream or more focused on crypto. But I think there are a lot of different sources that I use. But personally, there isn’t like one kind of person who I follow, to be honest.
Right. Yeah, I think it’s it’s usually a plethora of people and resources that you can turn to. You have to pick and choose and see who is perhaps giving you content or providing content that is most relevant to you.
It can be a very, very subjective experience. Yeah. So now let’s you know, because we are almost out of time, I would like to ask you a few fun questions before we kind of wrap this up.
How did you come up with the alias Blockchain Babe? And what does it mean to you in the context of your work? If you could tell us a little about the story behind your podcast and content creation journey, that’d be great. And, you know, please perhaps do mention anecdotes or topics that have stood out to you. Yeah.
So, you know, I think when I first started in this crypto space, it was pretty obvious. Like because when I started, I immediately started attending conferences and local events. And I quickly noticed that the female presence wasn’t really there so much, especially sadly, when I went to meetups that were more technical.
It was really only like a handful of women there. And I thought of this kind of alias of Blockchain Babe because maybe to me it kind of like celebrates. Yeah, you know, like you can be like super female and whatever it means to be a woman, but also be in tech.
And I think that’s really important. Although I have noticed over the last maybe half a year that more and more women are getting involved. So it’s good to see.
And in terms of my podcast, like it just came out of the fact that like I travel like a lot. So like to Croatia and to Spain and to Portugal, to Singapore and everywhere. I would meet such fascinating people that and I do love a good story.
You know, it’s part of my advertising marketing background as well. So I thought it would be a great opportunity to get people who I find are interesting and working on really exciting things to come in and talk and get to share what they want. And in terms of creating content, it’s something that I will likely do all of my life because it’s my passion.
I like to do it. Right. Wonderful.
So can you tell us a little about perhaps, you know, tell us an anecdote or share something which was perhaps funny or awkward when, you know, you actually went about explaining DeFi to somebody or any DeFi concept to somebody outside of the industry? Yeah, I think in the first year that I was at Fiat 24, I was attending a few different conferences and events. And while explaining what we were doing, I mentioned that we were built on Arbitrum. And at the time, either people didn’t really hear about it or they weren’t excited about it or they weren’t using it.
So I think the initial reaction was, oh, no, like people, you know, didn’t necessarily weren’t excited about trying it out because, you know, they didn’t really know what Arbitrum was or they thought it was too complicated that they would have to bridge their ETH to Arbitrum network, you know. So I think that was a little bit awkward, especially in the beginning as a, you know, trying to do marketing and sales and try to talk to people, get them excited and people, it was like the one thing that was like a barrier for people. Right, right.
Yeah, it was. I think all of this, it does have a bit of a learning curve. So now this kind of brings me to the end of the episode, and I would be amiss if I didn’t ask you this one question that I ask everybody who comes in the episode.
And this, I think, would add to your last answer as well. If, you know, you made quite a leap from Web 2 to Web 3, you know, you were in Web 2 advertising and now you’re in Web 3, you’re working as a CMO on one of the most cutting edge platforms in the crypto fiat integration space. What would be your suggestions for people who are perhaps on the other side for them to be able to start living on blockchain? Yeah, I think you have to have, first of all, a real interest because the learning curve can be a little bit steep at the beginning.
So definitely if you have even a little bit of genuine interest, then it’s already a good start. And I always say that the best way to learn is by doing, in this case. So you could try to open different wallet accounts and put in just a little bit of money, not too much, and jump into community groups like on Discord and Telegram and just start learning by talking to the people around and doing some kind of minor testing yourself.
I would say that’s the best way to learn. I totally agree. I think you have to get your hands dirty.
And, you know, learning by doing is the best way to move forward in this industry. Thank you so much, Karen, for making the time to speak to me today. Is there anything else that you would like to add before we wrap this up? Yes, first of all, thanks for inviting me.
It’s been a really great conversation, but also would like to encourage all the female listeners that even if you don’t come from a technical background, that you shouldn’t let it put you off or scare you. I think we need a lot more women in this space. And we need to fill the traditional roles that come from Web2.
You still need salespeople and you need marketing people. So if you are interested, I don’t think you should let this kind of male-dominated or overly complicated tech aspect put you off. I think you should just go for it.
Yeah, I think that is always good advice. I truly feel that as well, that more women in this space is something that we all need to see. And I think people should stop looking at this space as something very, very esoteric and very, very particular, especially for people who perhaps are not very heavy on the tech side.
I do think that like any other sector, this has opportunities for people from different skill sets. And everybody is welcome. And we would all like to see more women in this space.
I agree. Brilliant. Awesome.
Anyway, okay. So thank you once again, Karen, for making the time to speak to me today.
This has been a lovely conversation. And I can’t wait to try out the platform myself and for our listeners to try it as well. And more power to you.
All the best for your partnership announcement with Mastercard. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you.
Thanks a lot. Thank you.