Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Anish. Anish has over 15 years of experience in the payments and fintech space.
He’s currently the founder and CEO of Wadzpay. They are launching an L1 and L2 as well called Wadzchain and they’re in testnet currently. They are hoping to hit mainnet in the first quarter of next year.
This is an interesting conversation where we touched upon the challenges that one faces when one is building an L1 or an L2, especially for someone who’s come from the payments background, a very traditional space and he’s made that leap of faith believing how decentralized technology is going to be the bedrock for the new financial age. I can’t wait for you guys to hear this. Let’s dive right in.
Anish, thank you so much for making the time to speak to me today. How are you doing? Thanks Arusha for having me. I’m doing very well.
I hope the same for you as well. Thank you so much. So for our listeners, can you tell us a little about yourself, your background, how you got into the payment space initially and how you landed in Web3? Okay, well, it’s a journey over 20 years.
Yes, I started in fact with the travel industry and I was part of Canada, then Austrian Airlines and found my way into American Express at that point in time. This is 2005-2006 and I joined American Express in the global business travel division and then moved up the ranks, served several roles in Asia and Europe as well before I joined MasterCard where I headed up the prepaid division for MasterCard and also was instrumental in some of the largest acquisitions which included Travelex. So yeah, that’s how I ended up in payments and deep rooted into payments.
In 2016-17, I was looking at doing something of my own. Of course, the blockchain space was booming and it was emerging. Even while I was with MasterCard and American Express, these were things that we were doing or ideas we were talking with of what would be the future of payments.
That’s how the idea around Wadzchain and Wadzpay was developed and in 2018, I founded Wadzpay which of course has since then diversified into blockchain as well. Okay, so that’s quite an interesting journey, pretty organic if I may say so myself. You were in the payment space, you worked with all these big wigs and obviously blockchain was making waves, is making waves that kind of drew you into the future of payments which is pretty much aligned with what blockchain is doing in the financial space.
So that was your inspiration to start Wadzchain. Can you tell us a little about Wadzchain, what it does and Wadzpay? Okay, so Wadzpay is more of an application and it’s a front office which deals with payments and solutions around blockchain-based payments. While we were developing Wadzpay, we also were working with several other blockchain partners and we saw a need that there were probably elements within the blockchain space which were missing from a payment standpoint and they did not address all the needs for the payments ecosystems as it was evolving.
So the Wadzchain network or the blockchain itself has been built and conceptualized in a way which addresses those needs and not only now but also in the future because it’s a fast emerging space. There is a lot which is going on, there is stable points, CBDC and whatnot and with all these new emerging technologies comes new challenges and hence the Wadzchain ecosystem kind of is geared, it’s a hybrid blockchain and it’s geared towards addressing those challenges and allows developers or companies to build products or programs around those challenges which allow for a seamless consumer experience. Okay, so if you had to perhaps summarize the USP for Wadzchain because there are multiple chains in this space.
You mentioned that it’s a hybrid chain that means it takes good things from public blockchains as well as private blockchains and creates an ecosystem but what would be perhaps a USP if you had to summarize it for our listeners? So the Wadzchain will be available in two formats, a public chain and a private chain. The public chain gives you like any other chain gives you the flexibility of developing any number of programs, it’s publicly available, it has a high TPS etc. On the L2 which we call the layer 2 or the private chain, there we are building a lot of specific programs which are around financial inclusion programs which would be around digitizing economies programs which not only do payments but they also address other ecosystem needs which could be related to capturing KYC information or having bi-directional message exchanges etc.
So both of them are purpose-built. What we’re also trying to solve with the chain itself is remove the dependency on or building the accounting of payments or transactions on the chain itself. So if you’re making a payment and there is a reward element to that payment, there is a settlement element to that payment, there is a cashback element to that payment, the chain has the capability of processing all of those different elements on the fly within a transaction.
So you don’t need an intervention at that point in time, it could be configured into the ecosystem of how you would like to split the payment or how the merchant or the business would like to split the payment or create a payment and we can do that on the fly. So it kind of eliminates the need of a lot of human intervention, it takes everything onto the chain itself and it also helps with upstream and downstream settlements, payment flows and whatnot. So that’s what the main USP is.
Like I said, it’s very purpose-built for payment. We looked at the pain points within payments because right now payments have an origin, they have a destination but we’ve tried to extend that destination from point A to point B to point C by also including upstream and downstream payments. Okay, so for somebody perhaps who is not working in this space, and this question would perhaps benefit them, your answer to this particular question, you would consider your chain to be more B2B in nature or are you creating this for the consumers as well for them to be able to perhaps transact on the chain? Okay, so the L1 or the layer one or the public chain is meant for anybody and everybody, right? So that’s publicly available and if any number of contracts or programs could be developed on it and could be available both for B2B and consumer purposes.
The L2, which is the layer two, which is the private chain, that is specifically designed for institutions, it’s a B2B. And that’s where we are trying to solve most of the issues around payment ecosystem. So both have separate use cases and both have probably similar or different audiences.
But L2 definitely it’s meant for B2B purposes but L1, of course, it has a flavor of everything. Okay, so you’re building an L1 as well as an L2, so is it EVM compatible? Yes, both the chains are EVM compatible. They’re compatible with all the standards and everything, so yes.
Okay, awesome. So where are you right now with its development? At what stage are you at? So the development for the Watts chain has been ongoing, right? We are now close to having the chains launched. So we are looking at a December launch.
So the testnet is already out there since September. And we are looking at a soft launch for the layer one, a public chain, in December with a full launch coming sometime in March. Similarly, for the layer two, which is a private chain, we are looking at a testnet launch sometime early next year.
And then also followed by a main launch mid of next year. Okay, so right now, are you looking actively for testers and folks to perhaps deploy nodes to help the infrastructure? So a lot of work has already been going on. So since we have deployed the test, we’ve seen some of the developers who have started developing contracts, simple contracts on their own, and testing the capabilities of the layer one.
What we are also doing additionally is we will be rolling out some community engagement programs, which include Ambassador program, and several other training programs, etc. So not only validators or developers to manage the nodes, but what we’re also looking at is building a holistic community, which would then come and we can also start training that community and run programs or reward developers who develop innovative programs on the chain. So all of that is being right now thought through and of course, being implemented as well.
And that’s something we are doing via Discord. And we’re looking at announcing the Ambassador program very, very soon, in fact, and followed by then training programs, which will start pretty much just after that. So a lot has been going on, a lot of thought processes have also been going on, on how do we engage the community? How do we bring in new talent? Because of course, from our perspective, what we have developed is a purpose built blockchain, but now we need talent and think tank from outside to help us taking it to the next level.
At the same time, we’re also building programs from a business standpoint, which is the Wadzchain business. And we are trying to bring in an element where the community will also be able to vote and participate in how the business moves forward. And that’s a program that we that we plan to bring in early next year as well.
And that will be something very, very interesting. Right. So would you guys have like a native token? Or are you going to be dependent on say, Ethereum or something else? So because we are a layer one, so we have we will, we have already got our native token, it’s called Wadzcoin.
And it’s recently been deployed. It’s actually, it’s feet or it’s roots from a token which existed earlier before that it was called WTK. And we’ve been we’ve sunset that token and created the native token, which is Wadzcoin now.
And it’s the token would be used for a variety of purposes, including Gatsby and, you know, rewards, and many other features which will be available on the chain. Okay. Can you tell me a little about the tokenomics? Well, the tokenomics are available online, but the tokenomics are very much geared towards rewarding and awarding the community.
And also, the idea is to create as much talent around around the chain. So there are things like which are locked in for marketing budgets, there are things which are locked in for development funds. So if there is a development which is going on, and we want to participate in that, or we want to fund that development, we could use the tokens to do that.
We also have a developer fund where where people who develop innovative programs on the chain, they would be rewarded. We are also coming up with the concept of premium accounts. These are our long term holders or community members who have stayed along through thick and thin with the business.
And we are really excited to introduce this, it’s going to be something new. It’s been tested by other businesses as well. But I think the plan here is to take it to a completely new dimension, which will also allow for the community to get airdrops participate in several upcoming programs, get early access into into what we are doing.
And also then basically build a much more stronger community. Very wonderful. You mentioned that, you know, there is a developer fund and you guys are looking at other engagement activities apart from creating a community on Discord to get more people’s interest on building as well as participating in the ecosystem.
Can you tell me a little more about what kind of engagement activities you have planned? If you could be a little specific so that we could get our listeners can get excited and perhaps sign up? Sure. See, the engagement activities are, of course, geared around nurturing more talent. We would like the blockchain ecosystem and the network to become deeply embedded into a lot of economies, into different businesses, into different payment lines across the world.
And for that, we need talent, we need think tank and developers to come on board. So we will run a lot of talent or skill set programs, trainings, et cetera, around the world. These could be physical trainings, these could be conducted online where these developers and these smart kids or people who have innovative ideas will be able to participate and develop new and innovative programs.
Of course, these programs together could be sold and resold to companies or businesses who are interested. So these are different programs we run. It’s like it’s going to be hackathons.
It’s going to be a lot of fun. Many of the challenges that we plan to roll out as a business. All right.
Can you tell me a little about the team behind Wadzchain? So the What’sPay team, the What’sPay and the Wadzchain team is basically built, we are deep rooted from the payments ecosystem. So everybody comes from the likes of American Express, MasterCard, whatnot. On the Wadzchain side, we are harnessing a brand new team which comes with a deep rooted understanding of blockchain.
We are going to be announcing the team very soon as well. The way we are trying to channel the Wadzchain business is also to set it up as a foundation, like I said. What it helps is it also involves then the community become a part of the team and help with the decision making.
So our intention around the Wadzchain business is to make it as much as possible embedded into the payment ecosystems around the world. And for that, we think we’ll need a lot of participation from people around the world. So that’s why the team structure is evolving, but we will be announcing the entire team for Wadzchain very, very soon.
Awesome. And in terms of like a white paper or any kind of documentation if somebody wants to read, it would be available on your website? Yes. So it’s Wadzchain-network.io. So our white paper, our blueprints and a lot of other things are available there.
We also have a testnet, which is available through that website. We are constantly updating that website. We will be introducing a roadmap and a milestone as well on the website where people can go and start seeing that what are the new activities, what’s going on.
We’re also available on different social channels. And of course, like I said, on Discord, we will be running a lot of programs, ambassador programs, etc. as well.
So there are various ways of reaching out to us as well and to read about us as well. Awesome. How are you taking care of the security as well as, because these are financial transactions ultimately that are happening.
So how do you enhance security and efficiency in financial transactions? See, that’s something which is always a prime concern. And there are several things that we continue to do. Of course, these are EBM compatible contracts.
They’re regular audits. And we also integrate with cutting edge tools such as Elliptic, Chain Analysis, etc. So security or financial security of a product is just not siloed to one product.
It’s basically the entire network which operates. So as a business or as a product, we utilize best in breed technology from custody providers, from transaction monitoring systems and whatnot. So as a holistic ecosystem, it brings in the flavor of what is new, what’s best available in market from a security and stability standpoint.
And yeah, couple that with audits. I think that’s how we’ve been keeping things safe. Okay.
Let’s zoom out a little bit. We’ve talked a lot about Wadzchain and Wadzpay. And definitely a lot of exciting stuff is coming up there.
But you’ve been in the payment space and now you’re working in the Web3 space. It’s getting your opinion on how the payment landscape has changed over the last decade. And what are the kind of major trends that you foresee shaping its future, especially keeping blockchain technology in mind and in that same context? See, I think the payment ecosystem or payments in general, they’ve been evolving, right? I mean, if you look at 50 years in the past, there was cash-based payments, then came traveler’s checks, then came cards, then came wallets in the last decade.
So pretty much from a user standpoint, the consumer experience and the payment experience is already very digital, except economies which are very cash dependent, but very few of those now. So it’s very digital already. But now for the first time, I think, for a very long time, the actual method or the form factor of payments is changing with the introduction of stablecoins.
Because that not only removes fiat from the equation, but it also helps create velocity of transactions, faster transactions, settlements, and cost of transactions, etc. So it’s just not changing or improving the consumer experience. But I think as an entire ecosystem, it’s changing after a very, very long time.
And these are very interesting times for the industry and the world in general, because with all these emerging changes such as stablecoins, CBDC and whatnot, we would be at the receiving end of very new and innovative designs, new way of making transactions, interesting way. And transaction may just not be payment-based transactions, right? It could be exchange of information and whatnot, which could flow on the same rails. So a lot is coming.
And I think with the emergence of, and especially because of the blockchain and the emergence of stablecoins, we are right in the middle of very interesting times. What is your take, because you’ve mentioned like stablecoins, what is your take on those? Because a lot of people say that, okay, stablecoins are all well and good, but they don’t necessarily go with the ethos of Web3 technology that those two seem at all. So what is your take? See, I think Web3 as a technology is a very large debate, right? There’s so much which happens in Web3.
What stablecoins tend to do is, of course, they consume the same technology of the rails, but they are allowing for new and very interesting use cases to evolve. So for me, stablecoins are gaining traction. Of course, there are believers and there are people who don’t believe in it so much.
But as a business, we have seen a keen interest from our customers, from governments, from regulators who we speak to. They’re also interested in seeing new and new ideas around how they emerge. Like recently, I was reading somewhere that ADGM, which is Abu Dhabi Global Markets, is implementing a complete stablecoin-based transaction methodology within their premises.
And several others who are looking at similar transactions, etc. Even for Wadzchain, we are working on a pilgrim program between Indonesia and Saudi right now and where such stablecoins or a form factor of those stablecoins would be utilized. So I think, like I said, there are believers and there are people who don’t believe in it.
But I think from a payment standpoint, it’s a revolution which I think it can’t be stopped. Yeah, definitely. I think that is correct.
It is not something that can be stopped. There’s going to be more development. And obviously, the philosophizing is something to think about a little bit, especially folks who are perhaps maxis in the decentralized space.
They don’t really believe in giving up the autonomy that blockchain technology brings to the table. But I think balance is key, like in many other spaces. Can you tell us now a little perhaps about the challenges that you face while building Wadzchain, Wadzpace and the entire ecosystem? Well, I think the challenges are pretty similar to any other startup founder.
It’s not an easy market. Last couple of years have not been easy. But they also have been interesting.
There’s been a lot of reform over the last two years, which has also put strain on revenue streams, on liquidity in the market, etc., etc. And we are, as a company, we have gone through those same challenges as well. But there is light at the end of the tunnel.
So there is a lot, which I think from a business standpoint, we are on an upswing. We are closing on deals, we are rolling out products. And at the same time, we are also battling with issues, which of course arise on and off.
These could be incidents, one-off incidents, etc., which happen. So as a business, as a founder, etc., I think always there are challenges, but it’s how you deal with those challenges. And I think we’ve always dealt with them head on and persevered.
So I think the next couple of years will be very, very interesting, especially that we have come such a long way. And we’ve got grips of the business, the reforms, the regulations and all are pretty much in place around the world. And now it’s time for us to start delivering products.
Yes, I concur. I think it’s time that we start delivering products. It’s a good time, especially with what has happened with the US elections.
I think a lot will change in terms of the global economy. Let’s hope it’s all for the better. What would be your advice for, say, aspiring entrepreneurs in the fintech space? Well, my advice would be don’t give up, keep fighting.
If you believe in what you have as a product, if you have a team, of course, you need to have a team which supports you, which understands your vision, and then as a collective group is ready to work with you on that vision, then that’s something which is very good. It’s a steep learning curve. I came from the payment space after almost 15 to 20 years and I’m still learning.
There’s a lot of things to learn. We’re not perfect. But I don’t think I mean, and at times you want to give up because there’s so much heat or challenges that you have to go through.
But I think at the end of the day, it’s all that hard work. And when you start putting products in the market and people start appreciating it, it’s all worth it. So I think it’s about continue to persevere and believe in yourself and what you’re doing.
Yeah, I think perseverance is the most important thing when you’re in the entrepreneurship game, just persevering, failing, starting again, those things. I think folks who basically stick around, they are the last ones standing. So that’s a revision.
Yeah. Yeah, it’s very different, right? Because everything has been democratized, right? So you have online communities, you have people looking at what you’re doing. And it’s sometimes not easy to keep everybody happy.
But I think as long as the intent is clean and clear, you will or everybody will, whoever is in it for the right reason, will be the winner on the other end. Yeah, I think, you know, it’s a stupid part to take thinking that you’re going to make everybody happy. That’s not going to happen.
But as long as, as you said, that you stand by your convictions and your motivations, your intention, motivations are right, then I think that, you know, you can go a long way. So that is just really good advice. I would also like to understand from you, Anish, because again, we’ve talked a lot about payments and ecosystem as a whole.
But in what are the kind of challenges do you think are being faced by the fintech industry, especially in the context of regulation and compliance? Because that is something I feel where a lot of folks who are building in the space, those become the greatest hurdles for them. So how do you perhaps overcome them? And what are the kind of challenges that you foresee in the future for this particular space? I think it’s the world or the fintech space, right, has just alongside the world has gone through a lot since 2018, 2019. So we had COVID, we had change in the world, economies, ecosystems, we have two wars going around in the world.
So all of that does put pressure on industries, right? Like I said, there’s a liquidity crunch in the market. So it’s difficult for fintechs to fund themselves and grow businesses, and whatnot.
I think also it was businesses are being held to a lot more higher standards compared to what in the last decade, which is real good. It’s not easy in today’s day and age to go and get a license or to go and get a funding or to go and launch a product because there’s a lot more control or reform around it. So there are also two ways of looking at it because when we started sometime in 2018, and we’ve come through a long journey, but as a company, we have always had to kind of adjust our direction and vision to what was happening in the global situation, right? And if you look at three, four years back, when there were no regulations or there were lack of regulations, it was a greenfield for everybody.
And that led to such as the FTX disaster or the signature bank and whatnot. But at least today with reform and regulations, it kind of gives you, even though they may not be as evolved as you’d want them to, but it at least gives you an idea of what is acceptable and what is not. And what’s the zone that you can play in? What are the kinds of things that you could do? So I think it’s good where we are headed, but it is a difficult road because it’s changing and it’s evolving and you have to keep adjusting.
And being a part of an industry, especially in the payment space, which is highly regulated in the traditional space, but it’s getting regulated in the emerging and the non-traditional space. So you need to find that balance. And for that, it’s constant learning, it’s constant adapting to market needs, economic needs, regulatory needs, which does put a pressure also on your bottom line and your bottom line is anyways, under pressure.
So it has all those elements which are working for you and against you at the same time. But like I said, I think that journey is kind of getting a lot more streamlined now. The last two years were difficult, of course, but as we move forward, it’s getting a lot more or Fintechs or when I even speak to co-founders, etc, it’s getting a lot more streamlined and we’re getting a hang of it, but how the government, the regulators, the businesses are thinking and where it is going.
So it all seems very, very positive from a Fintech standpoint. I think also there is understanding that Fintechs are important for the global economic development and also for the development of new products, skill sets and whatnot. So that’s also helping fuel the growth.
So, again, I see the next two to three years will be very, very interesting. Of course, the US elections have also kind of brought some kind of a better mood for the economies, I hope. Yes, likewise, you and me both.
Now, I would love to get some recommendations from you. You know, we’ve talked a lot about how builders should perhaps behave, you know, the space as a whole, but are there any resources that you would like to recommend to our listeners who are perhaps aspiring entrepreneurs building in the payment space or folks they should perhaps follow so that they can get all the right information? Well, it depends. I think there are many businesses or companies who are doing the right thing, like we love to follow Algorand as a business.
It’s built really well. It’s done very well. And the way we are structuring our business is pretty much on similar terms and similar lines, maybe the foundation or many other things that we’re trying to do with the community, etc.
So I think it also depends on what’s the objective and what exactly are we trying to achieve or as a business or as a founder, the people are trying to achieve. But yeah, of course, we have taken cue from the likes of, it’s a mix of things where I have worked or companies that I look up to. So it could be the MasterCards of the world from where we are trying to bring in our sales practices.
It could be the American Expresses of the world from where we’re trying to bring our governance practices, or it could be Algorand of the world from where we are trying to get our best and great, how we manage our blockchain, how we manage our community, etc. kind of practices. So it’s a mix of those things.
And I think it also depends on all of our backgrounds at the company and how we’re trying to combine all those different elements together. Right. I think those are good examples and folks perhaps can check out the kind of content these companies are creating.
I think that can be very, very helpful. Speaking of content, are you guys actively like pushing out content somewhere or you intend to do it on a particular medium in the future? So yes, like I said, the Wadzchain social media presence is very, very new. And we are building it out.
We will be doing a lot more on social media, such as Telegram, Discord, YouTube, etc. That’s what we feel is where the developer community is more focused on. And yes, so that’s where we are building content.
Our content will be more towards in the beginning as we are launching the chains would be more towards development resources, how to interact with our layer 1s and layer 2s, what kind of different things we could do together, etc. So that’s the focus, at least in the early part of content development. And I think then we would move on to best practices, sharing best practices, etc.
At the same time, of course, we will be building a lot more. We will also be providing platforms for developers, etc. to start sharing their views, their thoughts on how they interact with the Wadzchain.
Okay, that’s good. I think content kind of sets the tone for the entire brand identity. So that is wonderful to hear.
Now, as you know, we are coming to a close of this particular episode, I would love to understand from you, apart from the mainnet, which is obviously the main goal for you guys. What is the next big milestone that has you really excited about What’sPay and Wadzchain? So for us, some of these things, these products, when they’re coming to life, we already have a very strong commercial pipeline, which is lined up. And some of the programs that we will be deploying in the next one year, which include pretty much digitizing an entire economy using Wadzchain network in Africa.
There is also a program, which is a pilgrimage program, which will be one of the largest, which will also be rolled out on Wadzchain. There’s also a tokenization program that we would be doing in Indonesia and in Singapore and also in Central Africa. So these are programs which are in development, which are in implementation.
And some of these programs will be launched on these products. So what’s exciting for us and as a business for us is would be, of course, the products that we have built, the rails that we have built, and the actual programs which we are implementing on top of these products, which would be consumed by the consumers or businesses in these different geographies. So that’s very exciting for us.
And we can’t wait for all of it to come together and we can start experiencing it. Awesome. So all the very best to you, Anish, for everything that is coming up.
I’m sure that Wadzchain is going to really create a cohesive ecosystem for payments using blockchain technology. And I would recommend folks to go and check out all the material and the documentation that is available on the website. We’ll surely put in the link in the description of this particular episode as well.
And before we wrap this up, I would love to ask you this one question that I ask everybody who comes on the show. You’re somebody who made a leap from payment space, which is purely the web 2 currently, the traditional sense to web 3. And you know, you’ve built something so wonderful and useful here. What would be your advice to perhaps folks who are still facing this dilemma, and they don’t know whether they should take this leap of faith and move into the web 3 space? What would be your suggestions to them for them to start learning on blockchain? Well, I think it’s more about where you see a use case, and it excites you.
What, where you see that probably somebody who was involved, just like myself in the payment space in the healthcare space, or so many other things that they could be doing. And they see that there are challenges, which could be related to delivery of products, etc, consumer experiences, they could then start looking at web 3 and other emerging technologies of how they could resolve these issues. And probably that’s one of the ways of taking that leap.
But I think it’s like they say, it’s a leap of faith, right? I was in the payment industry, it was it was a lot of fun times. And I wanted to see that, what can I do further with the payment industry. And that’s where I took that leap.
Some of some of the people who work along with us who comes from the payment space as well. They’ve all they’ve all been innovators in a way or in the back of their mind. So if you have that little bit of an innovator in you, and you want to try out innovation, then just go for it.
I think today, more than ever, the world offers opportunities for for upcoming and budding founders, startups and whatnot. So this is the this is the best and the right time for people to take that leap of faith. I think that’s a wonderful way to close up this episode, Nish.
I think that is wonderful advice for running entrepreneurs and folks who are perhaps still tinkering with some idea, but haven’t taken the leap of faith. So I’ve come to the end of this recording. Any parting words before we wrap this up? No, it was it was lovely talking to you.
And thank you so much for your time. And, and of course, we’ll look forward to people who’d like to engage with us and happy to connect with them through our social media channels. Absolutely.
So thank you so much. Once again, it has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.
Bye bye.