Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Peko Vaughan. Peko is the Chief Ecosystem Officer at Pundi X. Pundi X is basically creating a suite of crypto products from point of sale systems to wallets.
And now they are working on a very exciting AI integration as well. They are focusing on data and it is one of those products that has been there for some time and has overcome challenges when it comes to integration with traditional finance, when it comes to completely crypto products. And obviously these products are helping for deeper penetration in the masses of crypto because it’s putting a daily use case right in the hands of the users.
So I can’t wait for you guys to hear this. I think this was a wonderful, wonderful conversation. Very insightful.
Again, I get really excited about fellow women in this space, really trying to build on their vision and change the world as we know it. So this is one of the more special episodes, especially because it came on a day when Bitcoin hit 100k. So I can’t wait for you guys to hear this.
Let’s deep dive right in. Hi Peko, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to me today. How are you doing? Thank you so much for having me, Tarusha.
I’m great. Today is Bitcoin passing 100k. I believe everybody in crypto are celebrating this particular moment.
Right. Yes. It’s a good day to have this conversation.
Yes. Something that people have been waiting for a long time. So this is a good day.
That’s true. I heard a lot of celebration from my colleagues and everyone’s are so excited. Right.
Everybody seems to be really excited on Twitter as well. Like all of my Twitter feed, it’s all about 100k and Bitcoin crossing that. Exactly.
Everyone’s fairly excited. Exactly. Awesome.
So just for our listeners, can you tell us a little about your background and how you got into Web3? Right. So I have been in Web3 more than eight years. And I started my journey in crypto and Web3, I think it’s in 2017.
And at that time, one of my ex-colleagues from Opera Software, he found me. And then he talked about the new initiative that he has. And at the time, I don’t know about crypto.
And of course, not mentioning blockchain technology. However, I’m from the background of the tech industry. I have been in tech industry for more than 10 years at that time.
I was always in for Internet service and also the electronics. Especially, I was based in Taiwan. And there are many hardware manufacturer.
At that time, many people were producing notebook. Remember, over 90% of the notebook manufactured by Taiwan at that time. And then I was working for a software browser company for the past eight years.
And basically, I have been through a period that mobile Internet has been taking off at that time. And I’m glad that at that time, I’m participating in there. And to try to make Internet to be accessible to more people in the world.
And after that, I heard about this new idea. I don’t know what it is about. But I really think that the way that the blockchain technology works would have a significant impact on people around the world.
Especially, we’re contributing financial inclusions. And allow more people to have financial access through Internet through a decentralized way. So, this is the concept that attracted me the most.
So, I joined in and then I participated in ICO. And then after the ICO, I started to build our product and then to push our product into many countries in the world. Wow.
Okay. So, it’s been quite a journey for you. And it’s been a long time since you’ve been in this space.
Now, can you elaborate a little bit more on what you’re building currently? What you’re doing currently? Right. So, we started as a payment solution, blockchain-based payment solution developer. I think the reason that we got into this space was the company itself is actually doing the QR code payment at that time in Indonesia.
And then big players come in. And also, we found that actually there’s one particular reason that the digital payment hasn’t been widely adopted by the users that has no bank accounts. So, we thought that that could be the opportunity to bring in more people online, bring in more people to be banked.
Because we believe that the blockchain technology will provide very good benefits for those who are unbanked. So, we started this journey by designing a suite of products that include actually a point-of-sales device, as well as the wallet and the merchant portals. So, we were thinking if we would like to make this technology widely adopted by the user and we can start it from the regular store, the retail store, physical store.
So, whenever people to go to the grocery or cafe to buy things to spend their money, and then they can actually spend their crypto. So, this is the idea that we thought in this way that could make crypto become a utility in our daily life. So, we designed a series of products and we manufacture the point-of-sale device.
I remember at that time, it was the world’s first point-of-sale device solely focusing on crypto. Until today, this product still exists and this product is still being used by others as well. So, with that journey, we are actually taking it to another, also other experiments as well as DeFi, as well as the decentralized exchange.
So, we not only the payment side, but also we try different DeFi applications on our platform and then to see what is the uptaste. And until today, we found that payment is still very attractive to our clients. So, yeah, I think this is a particular moment that institutions and also banks, traditional Web2 company, they are looking to scaling up their payment business with crypto as well.
Right. Yeah, definitely. I think this today is an inflection point like no other.
But this is wonderful that you created a suite of products that will help basically create more widespread adoption in crypto and make more people comfortable using it in their day-to-day life. So, you mentioned that you have a point-of-sale system, you also have a wallet. And I see on the website, there is also some deepened angle that you guys have for your solution.
Can you elaborate a little on that as well? Right. Actually, in terms of the deepening, we are a little bit different from other deepening projects. And since our solution involved with the hardware devices, and this hardware devices, actually, the merchants contribute their resources and then to make it to a cryptocurrency to facilitate crypto transactions.
So, for our deepening solution that we provide the technology and hardware for the merchants, and the merchants use it for day-to-day transactions, and they got a reward from time to time when there are campaigns. So, we use it as a mechanism to calculate the reward that we can allocate to each merchants. So, I think this is another way to encourage the regular merchants to earn additional reward in addition to their regular business.
And because of that, they also become a, I think, interesting party for other crypto projects as well, because they would also like to make their tokens being used in day-to-day life. So, most of the time, we are receiving interest from other projects that they would like to list the tokens on the Xposed device as well. But however, our screening and filtering system, and also, we need to look into the compliance issues.
Not all the tokens can be accepted in our POS system. And I think in the future, we are kind of like taking the POS solution to another level, which is the decentralized solution. And the merchant has the flexibility to choose which tokens that they would like to support.
So, yeah, I think this is a gradual process, because seven years ago, when we launched this product, no one is doing it. And also, the biggest hurdle is that the speed of the transactions, because at that time, we only have Bitcoin mainnet, as well as the Ethereum network. And you need to pay higher fees for Ethereum network, and that would actually slow down the transaction.
So, what we have done before was to create a custodial system so that people can transact in a very fast, speedy way. But with the time, progress, and also technology evolve, and we started to provide on-chain solution for the merchants. So, with our POS device, basically, the merchants can accept all the supported tokens like Bitcoin, Ethereum, and others, popular cryptocurrency on various chains, on Bitcoin mainnet, on Ethereum, on Solana, on Tron network, on BNB smart chain.
So, they can use their own wallet to transact and to pay with the merchants. Right. So, at the moment, what are the kind of tokens that your POS machine does support? Right.
So, basically, the POS machine supports very basic tokens like Bitcoin, Ethereum, USDT, USDC, as well as BNB, those type of tokens, and ETH as well. Because those are the currency that our retail customers use the most. And we see over 60% of the transaction actually coming from USDT, which is stablecoin on Tron network, because it has relatively lower gas fee.
So, when it’s involved with the transaction fees, the customer intend to pick the lowest one to transact. So, nowadays, there are so many options. We have the Layer 2 blockchain, and we have a different Layer 1 that offers speedy and very low gas fee.
So, we would like to take our product into another level to accommodate and also to support multiple blockchains. Of course, and also support the people who spend with using their private wallet as well. Right.
Absolutely. I think this comes down to a very personal choice of the user. So, can you tell me a little about the geographies in which your suite of products are available? Because these are physical POS systems, I believe that there will be certain places that perhaps your services are not available.
Right. So, for our system, we ship the devices to over 30 countries in the world. And with the regulatory policy evolve, and the POS device is active in the country whereby the merchants or the local distributor that has a license.
So, that includes Canada, and also Japan, and South Africa as well. But different country has different transaction volume. And we see in particular, South Africa has relatively higher transaction volume compared to other countries in the world.
Okay, wonderful. So, what is the next big thing for you guys? What’s the next big milestone that you’re looking at? Actually, our nature of the company is more like the pioneer of developing the innovative technology. So, our milestone is that we would like to, first of all, we would like to realize the technology that the merchants can connect their own wallet to the POS device.
And then they can actually, they can settle the crypto through our system and then to with using their own wallet. And I think this is the most decentralized way to empower the merchants to truly get into the crypto, truly enjoy the benefit of crypto. Because during our past seven years, it’s very needed that you will need a third party to help you to settle, to help you to transform the crypto or convert the crypto that you receive into either stable coin or into the local currency.
But I believe that with the population of the stable coin and also with a clear regulatory environment for the stable coin, merchants would be more and more open to use stable coin as the settlement currency and also to use it into their day-to-day settlements. So, if that happens, then that will be one last step to convert from stable coin into fiat currency because it’s another conversion that happens. And I believe in the future there will be, since crypto awareness and education has been more and more familiar by others, by all the peoples, so they will start to look into the benefit of self-hosting their wallet.
So, we would like to look into this, particularly in this field in the future. And also with artificial intelligence adoption in many countries in the world, I believe that by having the AI into our products will benefit for our merchants as well. And this is more like we are still exploring what the benefit would be and also what would be the possible combination by combining AI and blockchain.
But so far, actually, we have developed a product that would help the people like you and me to get familiar with how you can contribute yourself to develop the AI technology by contributing your work. And then how does it realize on the blockchain and how would you benefit from the blockchain technology, especially when you own the data, when you own the piece of work that you have to deliver? And how does it make it valuable and also to bring you sustainable reward as well? So that was going to be my next question. Actually, I was about to ask you how you are utilizing AI.
So you’re primarily using it to figure out what can be the best deal for the user. Is that correct? Yes, basically not only user, but also for the merchants and also for our distributors as well. Because first of all, AI can predict and also to anticipate the upcoming results.
So if we are using it for, for example, for fraud, if the AI would detect that these transactions actually is not coming from a usual address or is coming from a reflected address, that would help the merchants or the receivers to save a lot of troubles. Because nowadays a lot of wallets has been tented with, I don’t know whether you are familiar with the dusted attack, which is you will see very, very little amount of crypto to fish you to send the token back to that address and the address will be compromised. So I think this is the issues and also the challenges once the crypto wallet has been widely adopted, because your wallet will be tainted if you are interact with questionable or problematic wallet address.
So I’m hoping that the AI technology can resolve these issues and we’re starting to look into different mechanism to predict that. And also for the settlement side, there are a lot of work involved with rate settlements. For example, when you receive Bitcoin and then you would like to settle in USDT and then USDT would like to settle into the local currency.
And in this process, you are experiencing two type of conversion. Is it going to convert immediately or you need to convert later? And what is the best way to convert? For example, like today, Bitcoin is 100k and sometimes it goes to 102k. So that would make very big differences for the merchants because if the market is very good, which is no problem, the merchant will get more.
However, when the market is down, for example, if at the moment you receive the Bitcoin is 100k and then once you settle, you only receive 900k. So that would create risk for our merchants. So what is the best way to settle and when to settle? That would become a very good problem to solve because this is relatively complex issues and require relatively advanced technology to resolve.
And also I think the most practical usage utilization of the AI would be the customer service as well. So when you pay with crypto, a lot of people, they don’t know how to pay. They might be the first time users or this is their first time to spend crypto in the retail place.
So how can you, when you spend, how can you get advice from the AI how to proceed to the next step? For example, since we’re supporting multiple blockchain and sometimes the blockchain itself has a relatively crowded network where the network is suspended for no reason. And for customer, they don’t know what’s happened. They just know that their transaction has been pending and that would create a lot of customer complaint issues.
So how can we use AI to give a better guidance for those type of situation and then to make the transaction more smoother? So those are the things that we need to really look into. And also you should use AI in a practical way to solve problem for the users. Wonderful.
I think those are like the most obvious use cases right now as AI stands currently that can really add to your suite of solutions. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you about the kind of challenges you and your team must have faced in trying to integrate these crypto point of sale systems in the traditional system at large. What were the kind of challenges and how did you guys overcome them? Right.
I think the most challenges would be coming from the regulatory and compliance. Because seven years ago when we started, there’s no regulation at all. So when we sell the product and then the next few years later, and then we have to tell them that, hey, you got to have a license to use our products.
So it’s very difficult for us to tell those clients that you need to stop using our system if you don’t comply with the local regulations. So I think that would be the biggest challenges. So after that, whenever we onboard new clients, we ask this question before they buy our product so that they won’t experience the difficulty or the challenges that once they receive the product and then they cannot activate it.
So this is one issue. And also the regulatory issues. For some merchants, they are very focusing on their own business.
They don’t really understand or get to know about cryptocurrency as well as the regulations. So there are a lot of time to be spent on educating them and to explain what type of blockchains that they need to choose to pay. So with that, we keep improving our products to make sure that to lower this learning curve at a very low level.
But the technology is involved as well. And another challenge is that there are different chains coming up. And which chain is stable enough or long enough.
I mean, if they survive the several years of bear and bull market, it would be very much possible to become a popular chain that has been used by other the most and being more reliable. So there are many new chains coming up and how can we decide which chains are the most stable ones. But I think for for this is a balance to judge between the popularity and also the most stable chain and most affordable chain.
And different country has different chain preference. So for us, it would be kind of a type of good challenges to solve. How can we answer or cater those demands? So that’s another challenges.
And the third one would be we we see a lot of users actually is very smart of using their crypto wallets and our merchants knowledge is not as smart as they are. So when they pay, that could be they will pay, for example, like fake coins. And then our merchant is not aware of this is a fake coin.
It has no liquidity at all. So fortunately, our system has has already blocked those coins that are not supported. So there’s one time that a customer, they use a fake USDT coin and then to pay and then claim that they already he already made the payment.
But the POS system is not showing any receive. So we got a call, a message from the clients and then find out that actually from the hash. Actually, this is not the the official USDT.
It’s a fake USDT. The contract address is completely different. So, but you have to explain that the situation to the merchants, because they don’t know about this fake between the fake coin.
And how do you find out what is the smart contract? So that would be another education resources that would be spent a lot to bring the time when you make the crypto adoptions forward. I think those are, you know, you put them very nicely. I think those are real challenges, challenges to do with just compliance, explaining the problem statement, perhaps, and, you know, the changing world of crypto to merchants and also just figuring out a way to scale this in a sustainable way.
Obviously, when, you know, you’re doing a lot of multichain transactions, that can be a challenge in itself, just figuring out which chain is popular with. But I would love to understand from you, you know, because obviously, you guys onboard a lot of partners. And, you know, you’ve collaborated with governments as well as platforms.
Are there any kind of prerequisites that you keep in mind before closing a partnership or onboarding a partner into your ecosystem? What are perhaps like the three key factors that you keep in mind? Right. Since we’re moving to a more decentralized way, and we are particularly looking to the utility as well as the popularity of the application or developers that they are building. So if the application has been widely adopted for the partners, so basically we can see the on-chain activities.
And then if this is a good addition, and then we will add into our product portfolio. And also the request is coming from merchants themselves. For example, we have the merchants who has a physical gold coin shop.
And with the crypto being very popular and they would like to offer gold-backed tokens. So we evaluate the market and then we suggest that maybe you should look into the tokens that has been complied in many countries, for example, like PASG and issues by Pexos. So the merchants would love to have PASG as part of their portfolio, crypto portfolio to suggest the clients to pay with PASG as well as to buy PASG from the system.
So these are different type of evaluation points for us to consider how we integrate the new partnership and also the new coins. And with the decentralized version ready, and I believe that we have more flexibility to onboard those new coins, especially when the MimiCoin has been very popular. And if the MimiCoin itself has the liquidity and is okay to be offered for the merchants, and then the merchants can conduct the transactions without losing sales.
So that’s also the direction we are taking on right now. Okay, awesome. You sound so wonderful and you guys are creating a very cohesive ecosystem for crypto services.
And like I mentioned before, this is one of the best ways in getting a deeper penetration, perhaps within the masses for crypto. Now, we’ve talked a lot about your venture upon DX and how it’s kind of doing so well and what is exciting about that ecosystem. Let’s zoom out a little bit.
I would love to know what trends in the space are most exciting for you. And how are you, you know, perhaps upskilling yourself or positioning the company in a way so that you guys stay ahead of the curve? Yes, I think you asked a very, very good question, because we always look into the technology and also the trend that would help us to ahead of the curve. So what we are looking at is the data service, which is in today’s, especially when the big AI, large language model that would need a lot of data to improve the efficiency of the model, as well as the quality of the model.
We thought data would be a very, very important market, especially for us working in blockchain, because everyone has data. But in the past, you contribute your data to social media platform that’s being managed by a few companies like Facebook, Instagram, basically they are the same company, Google and others. And they have a lot of data to build a very good large language model.
And also people have been served the data industry by contributing their hours and then their work come up with a very good trend data to the models and then for the big company or government to trend. And however, actually the data can be your most valuable assets. And how can we leverage these assets and also leverage your time to process those data and then to get continuous reward and also revenue for yourself from that.
And we thought blockchain is a very good platform to facilitate this process, especially for blockchain. Everyone can get involved. You connect with your wallets, and then you can start working for data annotation service, and then you can get reward.
And this reward is so tokened that you can receive and then you can swap to another token. It could be a stable coin. But however, your efforts can be paid through a decentralized technology.
Not only that, we thought that this process can be tokenized. It means that all your work, especially your trend data can be converted into NFT and then you can sell to other data buyers. And for the data buyers, it’s also beneficial for them because they’ll be able to source different types of data on chain.
And also when they buy the data and a certain percentage of the fees that will go back to the minter itself. So we thought blockchain provides a lot of tools and also very good technology to facilitate the data ownership as well as to generate value for the data that you have. Right.
Well, this is very interesting. And I think this is something a lot of people are looking at as the bigger trend that one can really bank on because data has always been like the new oil and making sure that it’s not like just data, but it’s actionable data is what I think is going to set the tone for the coming years. Yes, especially trend data would be very helpful for academic and small business to trend their own language model, no matter if it’s a large language model or a small language model.
But data itself serves as a very basic feed or like an oil. We will say like an oil to kind of fuel this revolution. So right now we are launching the Alpha testnet for the white listed people to try on this platform and then to experience this new technology.
So we are hoping that this platform can be evolved and also brought in many people to participate in it and then grow it into like a data marketplace. Right. Awesome.
This is very, very interesting. I would love to test it out myself once we do roll it out for the larger public. Now, you know, talking about you personally, what has been your, what are the kind of insights you have gained by being in Web3 for, you know, you’ve been around since 2017 and it’s been quite a journey.
So what are the kind of changes that you have seen in this space? Right. I think being in this space is not easy because you have to be really on call like 24-7 and things change a lot. People change a lot in this space.
So it’s, it’s very, when you looking at those technology, you always find the new narrative, the new technology and the new type of applications. So for us being in the Web3 industry, I always think that how can we bridge the innovation to the real world adoption, because that would make the innovation meaningful. If you don’t think that, that would be like a very, very fake, very, this, this is not sustained.
I don’t like doing something unsustainable. So, yeah. You can’t really grow that, that’s just doing something for the sake of doing it, right? Exactly.
Unless you have the larger picture in mind, there’s no point in building that, right? Exactly. And then there are so many applications, so many innovation, what, which innovation would be particularly helpful to solve people’s problem. And, and sometimes we can see a lot of applications for the sake of being part of a narrative or being advanced, but you don’t know what is going.
Yes. Yeah. So I will stay away from there.
And I was just very focused on what exactly will bring real world usage in our life. Otherwise, it’s just very, I think it could be a good inspiration. That could be realized in later stage, or that could be some, something for the future.
But I always stay focused on what we are doing and try to resolve things because when you are making, pushing for the adoption, there are so many challenges that you need to resolve. And I would more prefer to resolve these challenges to come up with the technology to solving those challenges. And that would be my guideline to when I’m in the web3 industry.
I think that’s a good guideline to have. And that’s a good insight. I think that is something that, you know, you’ve been after some years of experience in this space that, you know, not everything needs to be decentralized and what are you building and how is it going to sustain in the long term? I think those are important questions that you need to ask yourself when you are building anything.
Exactly. Lovely. So now, you know, I think we are running out of time.
But I would be completely remiss if I didn’t ask you two things. So I’ll ask you two more questions before we wrap this up. Are there any resources and, you know, books or content that, you know, you could, you would like to recommend to people who are building in the space and who are entrepreneurs in the payment space or even just otherwise in the larger web3 space? Right.
So for the payment space, I think we need more people from the web2 industry to get into this space. So for them, it’s like a beginner of crypto beginner or new crypto newbie that we call. So I would suggest them to read the Bitcoin Standard to understand the fundamental of why cryptocurrency is needed, why decentralization is needed.
I think Bitcoin Standard gives very good insights and also a way for you to understand how money works. So this is the book that I recommend. And also, I would like to recommend people who are in the AI industry, particularly looking to the data science related either class or workshop.
I think it’s more interactive for you to learn those concepts, because I think what AI is, is the data science. So it means that AI becomes smarter because they use a lot of data to come up with the conclusion or come up with a prediction or come up with a model that would either solve your problem or to guide you a certain way. So it’s a process of digesting all the data to either clustering or either modeling.
So if possible, for us working in the web3 space, we should also look into data science related content or classes. That would be very, very helpful for you to advance your career in web3. Having that in your armor, I think makes you all the more stronger to really build on your vision and to get it right, because then you would have the right motivation as well.
Right. I think most of it, we use the technology. We don’t really actually know the technology.
That’s for the answer. If you’re the builder, you need to have the fundamental so that you can see what should be built and what needs to be built so that you can resolve the problem for the user as well. But for the user, they don’t really need that.
I think sometimes their feedback is very constructive because that would help you to make the product more user friendly. Yeah, I think that is absolutely true. What you’ve said is very important.
The user doesn’t need to know how the technology works, but as a builder, you really do need to understand why and how the technology, you know, this doesn’t mean that, you know, you need to be a tech expert. It just means that you need to understand the foundation well so that, you know, you can build something that is not just fitting the narrative, but it’s actually useful for the user. Exactly.
This is wonderful. I think it’s a brilliantly simple way of putting something so important that I think more builders need to listen to. Peko, this has been such a wonderful conversation, but there’s one question that I ask everybody who comes on the show, and I would ask you as well, because you are someone who made a leap from Web 2 to Web 3 as well.
If you had to give, say, some advice for people who are facing with a similar dilemma, and they are still, you know, a little sketchy, skeptical about the technology in general, what would be your suggestions for them to start building on blockchain? Right. I think the people why they sketch, they have doubt or sketchy about the technology because the consumer or the user benefit has not been protected. And also they build with a lot of negative news, such as scams or the other like criminal activity that could be happening on the blockchain.
And I think that that is not only happening on the blockchain. In the real world, you have the same issues. It’s just that this is a new technology and people magnify this negative situation.
And also, when we are dealing with a customer service, over 99% of the time that people have issues because they cannot find their passwords, they lose their Google authenticators, or they change their phones. There are different ways. And also, if their wallet got hacked, or they got their account hacked, possibly it’s because first they might approach by someone from the telegram, and then they share their most sensitive information.
So whenever you were engaged in either crypto industry or other, I believe in the world war, people will fish your private information. So you have to be vigilant of what you share, because since you’re hosting your own wallet, and then not if not hosting the wallet, but also you are the one know all the passwords and also Google authenticated a one time password, even the one time password can be asked by others. So be vigilant of not to share your private information.
And sometimes we have to ask ourselves whether we trust people too much to give out those information because we thought that the other party could be a customer service. But it’s not. You are exposing yourself because in this industry, you are online, you are exposing yourself in a public space, and everyone can approach you out of the blue.
And you thought that could be a customer service, but it’s not. So be vigilant. And also, I think with more clarity that has been the guideline has been given by the government, it’s also help as well.
But not exactly that you have to rely the responsibility from the government that giving you because they will, they will just give you a guideline. But at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, or whether you know, when you engage with the technology, whether you spend time to learn about it, and whether when you make a move to invest or to send tokens, whether you know, the person that or the project that you send the token to. So I think be vigilant would be the two words that I would suggest to people in this industry of how to improve the situation for the blockchain and Web3 space, because it’s a public arena, and all things could happen.
And then you are the one that you have to protect by yourself, and just be vigilant about it. Absolutely. I think that is very, very important.
Decentralization is all about the user having more onus and prerogative, but it also comes with a lot more responsibility, you need to be vigilant, you need to do your own research, you need to be careful. Don’t be gullible in this space, because a lot of people will try to take advantage of that. So it’s good to, you know, have, perhaps, you know, just be a little wary, I think it’s, it will go and serve you long if you could just perhaps, you know, just just do your own research.
And I think that that goes a long way. Yes. Thank you so much, Beko, for making the time to speak to me once again today.
This has been a wonderful conversation, fairly insightful. Any parting words before we wrap up? Thank you for having me, Tarusha, and I think it’s my pleasure to be in your podcast, and I hope that the sharing that would be helpful to either your first time in the crypto industry or blockchain industry, where you are the longtime, longtime builder, and I hope that my sharing would be very much helpful. And I’m sure it will be very, very helpful.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much.