Transcription Episode 79

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Laurent. Laurent is the CEO and co-founder of Arthera.

It’s a layer 1 EVM compatible and DAG based blockchain platform. He is also the founder of Web3 Stronger Together initiative and a former TronDAO blockchain advisor. So he has extensive experience in tech of over 30 years like he mentioned in the conversation and this was an interesting conversation because even though a lot of folks are doing the subscription model like Scale for example or Arcana, their approach involves having an app store as well as a pay-as-you-go model which is very interesting and they have implemented it successfully as well.

So I can’t wait for you guys to hear this, let’s deep dive right in. Hi Laurent, thank you so much for making the time to speak to me today. How are you doing? I’m doing great, Tarusha, thanks for this invitation.

We are currently in a perpetual race. Right, absolutely. I think in Web3 mostly all founders feel that way.

So for our listeners, can you tell us a little about yourself and how you got into Web3? So I have to start saying I’m mostly 51 years old in one month. And I have been contributing now with modesty to build the web since mostly 20 years. Wow.

Yeah, yes. Quite a long time. Yeah, even more, sorry, 30 years.

I started when I was 21. I have been really early in what we call now Web2, cloud computing and the SaaS industry. It was the beginning of the beginning.

I have been evangelizing and converting big companies and then S&P to adopt Google Cloud, Google Apps, Google Workspace, Zoho, CRM, Salesforce and and all well-known SaaS solution we are using now. I have been advising big companies and startups last 20 years, their digital transformation and business efficiency. A lot of startups also SaaS strategy.

Great. I discovered decentralization, innovation, we call it Web3 now in early 2015 when I read for the first time the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper. I’m not a technical guy, so I had to spend some time to understand the technical innovation.

And at the moment, I simply renounced telling to myself, but reconsider this as a piece of philosophy, because I think we miss this point. It’s first a piece of philosophy. It’s a promise.

And since then, I used to spend one hour with myself, myself, myself and the Satoshi Nakamoto white paper each Saturday morning. In one hour, it’s my philosophy time. It’s opening doors.

I’m a real believer in decentralization and bringing this opportunity to each one and everyone everywhere. And since 2017, I have advised several Web3 startups and big projects. And now since a few months, fully dedicated to build Artea.

This is quite a wonderful journey. And I love the fact how you had all the requisite experience from Web2 and then you transition to Web3 when you came across the Bitcoin white paper. And I think this goes for a lot of folks who had joined in the Web3 space, as we call it now, probably like a decade and a half back, where at that point, there was no term like Web3.0. And we came very organically into the space because we fell in love with the ethos, perhaps, that were written and put forward in the Bitcoin white paper.

So your journey has been fantastic so far. Now, can you provide like a brief overview for Artea and its unique features as an even compatible layer one blockchain? And then, you know, perhaps I would love to know about the DAG based proof of stake consensus model as well. Yeah.

So I think I don’t want to dive too much in the technical aspect. Right. Yeah.

It’ll become too complex. Yeah. Yeah.

And it’s the main common mistake we are all doing in Web3 when we talk about mass adoption. Let me explain. As I told you, I have been using the web now since more than 30 years.

And there is two main innovations. I have been lucky enough to take part in the emergence and mass adoption. Internet and the mobile phone innovation.

And I can’t forget how it was at the beginning. People often are telling that if we didn’t get yet the mass adoption we are talking about now since more than a decade saying, look, it’s around the corner. Each time I look at the corner, I block my neck and I see nothing coming.

We are waiting for mass adoption like we are waiting for Godot. In fact, we forget that the main factor of mass adoption is not any technical improvement. It’s first of all, the cost acquisition for both businesses and individuals.

We don’t have a web mass adoption because now we have a fiber connection. We have a mass adoption because due to the pricing model. Let’s come back in the past.

And remember that at the beginning it was a pay as you go pricing model. You were paying for any web page you were downloading. Everything you were doing, interacting with the web at a cost.

It was the same for the mobile phone at the beginning. It was the surprise at the end of the month. You were paying for each call, each message, everything.

Nowadays, you have a subscription and you use it and that’s it. You don’t care anymore. You still have a quota, but you forget the quota.

It took some years to define the good quota and the good pricing model. But nowadays, you have several options. If it’s not enough, you upgrade.

If it’s too much, you would upgrade. And it’s fixed price, predictable price for both enterprise and individuals. And we just use the technical innovation.

Until now, in Web3, we apply the initial pricing model we used to experience, let’s say, at the beginning of the internet revolution and the mobile phone revolution. We have to keep in mind, again, the history of the web and the mobile phone revolution. It started with a pay as you go business model.

Then we have been able to subscribe to package by package, a fixed price for a fixed quota. And today, it’s subscription. In our life, in our societies, everything is becoming more and more subscription-based.

Even Twitter moved to a subscription-based model. Tesla, you subscribe for your car. So what we do, we are building Layer 1, fully EVM compatible, improved by a DAG protocol to improve the scalability.

Our own proprietary BlazeDAG protocol, the first test we made in a laboratory environment, we were able to reach more than 530,000 TPS. This is for the scalability. But the most important thing is we bring back the most successful pricing and business model in Web 2.0 that we will see in the web industry, the subscription-based model.

We keep supporting the pay as you go. People who want to interact time to time, paying gas fees can be. But if we want to engage people to use Web 3.0 like they use the web, could you imagine each time you send an email, boom, transaction fees.

You upload the file in Drive or Dropbox, boom, transaction fees. You like to post, boom, transaction fees. No way.

Today we have a subscription. We implement a subscription-based model for both end users, dApps, and businesses. So it’s a fixed price from month to month.

The price is set in fiat. You subscribe, paying in fiat or in crypto, and then you just enjoy your forgettable gas fees. Right.

Yeah. So that is very, very interesting, right? Because with the pay as you go model or a subscription model, it’ll be easier for applications to be able to do accurate revenue forecasting, perhaps. This is one of the, obviously, the very obvious advantages that came into my head while you were talking about this.

Yeah. You know, there is few things to consider. First, we talk about mass adoption, but we need to talk about and analyze the current usage of early adopters.

You can go on Defilama, on Dappradar, for example, and you check the blockchain and you analyze the number of transactions and the number of active wallets. Set a 30 days range, and you will see that for most of the blockchain, 95% of the blockchain, it’s less than one transaction per day per active wallet for a 30-day period. What does it mean? That we are early, but we don’t use it.

How many clicks are you doing on the daily basis on the web? You know, hundreds, thousands of clicks. Why? Because we have all faced this issue where we wanted to make a transaction and we told ourselves, hold on, I will wait a bit. The transaction fees came back to a lower.

You know, we know what it is. We achieved this last year with the emergence of a meme token, PP, suddenly during one week on ETH and all Ethereum blockchain, the fees went totally crazy. We have seen this last month with the inscription phenomena, where the fees went totally crazy, even higher than in a bull market.

So it’s the proof that we talk about inclusivity, onboarding the unbanked people and so on. But guys, when the transaction fees cost more than what 50% of the world population earn per day, I mean $7, it doesn’t work. We will not be able to onboard these people with such a pricing model.

The reason why we introduced end-user subscription, the basic tier costs $1 per month for up to 30 transactions per day. Then we propose a DApp subscription and it’s what we call the account abstraction next generation. Why next generation? Because it offers a predictable fixed cost for DApps who want to cover the transaction fees for their end-user.

For now, account abstraction is a great progress, but the project doesn’t know how much it will cost. And if you have a user adoption, it can cost a lot and you can’t predict this, you can’t set a budget because you don’t know how much it will cost in one hour, one day, one week, one month, one year. With a subscription based model, it’s the same price month to month, so you can predict, you can move to a more sustainable business model.

And for businesses, it’s the same for them, it’s like consuming any API, they choose a quota and then based on the quota, they pay the fixed price month to month. Okay, so is this particular way of creating a gasless experience? Are you giving a gasless experience for the users as well? Because you are charging the businesses? Yeah, exactly. What does it mean? It means we have several interesting use cases joining, like a decentralized mail, like a web free cross-share, decentralized alternative to e-transfer.

We have a PX drive, a decentralized alternative to Dropbox. With our agnostic approach in terms of user onboarding, you could create your account using your email, Google logging, social logging. You start to use the web app in the free version, and if you want to upgrade, you can subscribe paying by card in fiat or in crypto.

If you want to create your account using your web free wallet, it’s up to you. We bring back the choice to the end user. So we engage all project joining to implement themselves a freemium model, also to open a new era of web free startup sustainability.

We see that during all their market, a lot of projects are just closing the door. Why? Because they don’t generate enough incomes to sustain. When you analyze the success rate in the web industry, we have to assume that 50% of the successful startups have a subscription-based model, when only 5% of successful startups have a pay-as-you-go business model.

So implementing a subscription-based model increases 10 times your chance of success. The reason why we also engage projects to launch their own subscription model, first offering a no-gas-fees experience to their end user, because it’s all about facilitating onboarding. If we want to engage more people to make a try, they could make a try without having to pay the cost to make a try.

And with this approach, you can create your wallet. You don’t need any native token in your wallet. You don’t need to buy crypto first to enjoy a decentralized email provider, for example.

Great. So I think this is a very interesting use case. I think, as you mentioned, we keep talking about mass adoption, but mass adoption is going to happen only gradually.

And moreover, with this particular model, which makes it very easy for the user to start interacting with the decentralized applications and with a sound use case, that is when really it’ll take off. Can you perhaps elaborate a little more on the DAG-based proof-of-stake consensus model, just a little bit, and what kind of makes it perhaps a USP as against other blockchains that are available? Because not a lot of them are using DAG-based. One more time, I don’t want to go deep in the technical side, because I say it again, we miss the point in terms of mass adoption when everything is around.

We are all advanced people, and most of the people don’t understand at all and don’t need to understand this, what they need. It’s a solution solving a real problem and a solution that they can use in an easy way. We keep forcing people to create their own non-custodial wallet, their private key, they have to buy crypto.

Guys, you don’t care about how SMTP is working when you send an email. Yeah, absolutely. This was more for perhaps the technical guys who actually do key in.

I’ll just add, I think your perspective is brilliant and well appreciated here, because I do think that once we get too technical and get too deep into the technicalities, we lose a certain part of the audience. Not everybody needs to really understand how the blockchain works, or different chains work, or how interoperability works, or how different chains work, and what kind of tech they are using for them to be effectively using these platforms and getting into Web3, because that kind of defeats the purpose a little bit. But just so that I can give a little context here, directed SLA graphs, basically, that is the difference there, and the guys who are perhaps curious, they can look it up.

Yeah, so I will engage them to go on, learn the protocol, they have all technical design. If they have any question, they can reach out. But honestly, even on stage, each time I say, guys, stop, just stop.

Since here, I’m telling the same. We stay focused on technical discussion. And you know, the reason why we don’t see more newcomers joining this crypto event, we see now a plateau in terms of Web3 community.

Why? Because we are not able to talk to real people, you know, who want an alternative to Google, to Dropbox, who maybe want an alternative to their bank. But if we keep talking in a technical way, no chance to, you know, it’s easy to tell people, educate yourself. But guys, it’s complex.

So yeah, it’s not for everyone. Yeah, it’s not for everyone to get into the complexities of it. Absolutely.

And you know, we want more users and users don’t, as you gave a very good example, not everybody understands how SMTP works, but everybody’s email. And that is exactly the way, you know, blockchain applications should aspire to be as well, that not everybody needs to understand the technical aspects, but you’re solving a problem. And that is why your application is speaking.

Tarusha, we constantly create new narrative to try to convince ourself that the mass adoption is coming. Okay. It’s LWA, it’s liquid staking, it’s encryption, ordinals, it has been NFTs, DeFi and so on.

But listen, the real life reality is far away from this. How many people invest in stock market? It’s a small percentage when you compare to the world population, but who is using an email? Who is using a messaging app? Who is using social media? Here is the mass adoption. So we have also to introduce and promote different use cases.

This is for a minority. DeFi is for a minority for now. And even more when you just have $50 or $100, you can invest in DeFi and each time you want to interact, it costs you a lot in transaction fees.

There is more than 300 billion emails sent per day actually. Okay. This is a real use case.

Having decentralized alternative to the current main email provider, this is something. Why? Because when you use Gmail, you give your privacy, your data to Google. If you use a decentralized alternative with decentralized storage, you keep preserving your privacy and your data.

Okay. So even if we just reach 1% adoption, 1% of people sending email using a decentralized alternative, it’s 3 billion transactions per day. 3 billion.

The whole DeFi ecosystem doesn’t generate as much transaction that 1% of emails sent per day could generate. Right. Yeah.

Well, that is a very wonderful way of putting it. And it’s a very refreshing way, I must say, for putting this in a matter of fact manner. You have also perhaps started, this was something I read online, Web3 Stronger Together initiative.

Can you tell us a little about that and how does it contribute to the overall development and collaboration within the ecosystem? Yes. In fact, it was two years ago. And I was a bit tired about facing constantly the same critics from people not involved, telling crypto, Web3, it’s all about criminals, money laundering, hack and so on.

And I wanted to aggregate a smart, fair, trustable, authentic people in a collaborative initiative to also show a different face of Web3. I’m not here to criticize or judge people, each one has to assume what they do. But I wanted also to bring back first, highlighting the promise, the core value, why we are here involved in Web3.

It’s a decentralization about privacy, data ownership, being financially independent, having an alternative to the current solution, showing that first of all, any innovation, it’s humans, co-building with humans for real humans. Great. OK, and how does one become a part of this initiative if they do want to contribute? Just to reach out, we have organized a few online events.

We are preparing the next one. The last one, we were 120 projects approved. So it’s really nice also to see the synergies, our projects collaborating with others.

It’s a kind of emulation. It’s really refreshing to cooperate with open-minded and fair and trustable people. And even more when we see on a daily basis, we have seen, we have faced some drama, aftertakes and so on.

I think it’s good also to show that it’s not only all about this, there is smart people around. Right. OK, that’s wonderful.

This initiative, I think I resonate a lot with because I do totally believe that, you know, all of these smart people in Web3 coming together, we can really make a difference. And it’s only when we are working together in a collaborative way, can we truly make a change in the way people perceive Web3, in the way perhaps builders are taking on building in Web3 and all of that. Now, coming to builders, because you have a chain and you also have an app store.

So can you tell us a little about the kind of traction you have seen there in terms of users, as well as the applications that are there on the store? So for now, we are preparing what we call the grand opening, the public launch at the end of January. Mainnet is live in a private version since Christmas, a symbolic date for Genesis Block. We are onboarding more than 160 projects.

Wow. Yeah, it’s each day is a week. Mid-February, we will launch our grand opening.

It will be a 12-week period campaign with an incentivization program for both end users and apps. During three months until the end of March, there is no native token in circulation. We really want to engage people to experiment the subscription-based model.

So each one will be able to claim a free subscription, three-month subscription at the end of this month. And so they can enjoy up to 30 transactions per day, no gas fees. They can explore the ecosystem interacting with any dApps without facing any transaction fees.

And starting mid-February, we launched what we call the weekly grand lottery. It’s pretty simple. One transaction equals one free ticket.

The more transaction you do, the more tickets you’ve got, the more chance to win a prize you will have. Wow. That’s wonderful that you’ve gamified it as well.

It comes to gamification and obviously, you guys are looking at perhaps processing a lot of transactions in any given day from any particular dApp or any user. So that brings me to the question of scalability. Scalability is obviously a crucial factor in any kind of chain or any blockchain technology for that matter.

How do you intend to address the scalability challenges? And will it have any kind of an impact on the user experience? No, not at all. First of all, I engage each one to come back to the current reality in terms of adoption and usage. You can go, for example, on RealTPS and you will see that the first one is Edera with 1,300 TPS.

It’s the current usage. Polygon is 90 TPS. What does it mean? It doesn’t mean that these blockchains are not able to handle more transactions.

It means that we don’t have yet enough people using what we are building and not using this enough. As I told you previously, when you analyze the on-chain reality, it’s less than one transaction per day per active wallet. So talking about scalability, for me, it’s guys, you know… We’re not there yet.

No, yes. Any blockchain is… What is the sense of pretending to be able to support one million TPS when you just have less than three TPS average? That is true. There’s a contradiction there.

Exactly. It’s the wrong approach. We deploy Edera in two phases.

The first one with Lackesis, a DAG proof-of-stake protocol. It’s an open-source protocol which can support up to 10,000 TPS. It’s already a lot.

Hold on, I just checked something. 10,000 TPS, it’s more than 800 million transactions per day. Okay, we can go on.

There is already a lot to do with this. And starting this year, we will start to implement and deploy our own proprietary BlazDAG protocol supporting more than 500,000 TPS. And with such performance, we can support 48 billion transactions per day.

Oh, okay. We don’t need millions of TPS. We first need real usage.

Right, right. That’s true. So, with your rich experience in business strategy and development, how do you see the current landscape of the entire ecosystem? And what kind of a role or what kind of a strategy do you have in mind for Edera as well, you know, in order to make sure that, you know, you guys are getting the right kind of adoption? First of all, I do think that with our business model subscription-based engaging project to offer no gas fees experience, we will see a surge in terms of not only active users, but also number of transactions per user per day.

If we just take the current number of people using web-free app and rather than doing less than transaction per day, they make 10 transactions per day, we already have 10 times more usage, basically. So, it’s all about the pricing model. If you tell people, hey guys, you can not only enjoy DeFi, GameFi project, NFT marketplace, you can mint your NFT connection for mostly nothing or at no cost.

And people who will mint will be able to pay by card, in fiat, Apple Pay, Google Pay, or in crypto, without the need of owning any crypto first in their wallet, the native token. It’s radically changed the way we can onboard the people. And if additionally, you bring decentralized alternative to massively used web app, like decentralized Dropbox, decentralized alternative to WeTransfer, WeTransfer, it’s 20 million monthly active users.

And the same messaging web app, it’s like emails, it’s more than 300 billions message sent per day. So, imagine the potential. Yeah, that it does have, right.

You know, in terms of creating a community and sustaining an L1, those can be a little hard initially, it becomes a little like a chicken and an egg problem, especially because you’re a chain, you need developers as well as users. Are there any community, specifically community-led initiatives or marketing strategies that you are deploying to get a good foothold in the market? You know, in Web3, we always are impressed by big numbers, knowing that it means nothing. There is a few blockchain who have half a million followers or million followers on Twitter, and who have just one, two transactions per block.

Actually, you know, we have to uncorrelate these numbers. It’s easy with bots, you have a lot of service providers, you pay a few hundred dollars and you reach a few hundred thousand followers on Twitter. It doesn’t mean these people will use your product.

So, until now, we have decided to be focused on builders mainly, not spending an indecent amount of money to shield people and to get some fake numbers. We support projects and then it’s up to projects to engage them, to engage the people, to adopt what they built. You know, an internet service provider is focusing on promoting its own product, engaging people to subscribe to internet subscription, but not doing the work for everything built using what they deliver.

So, first of all, builders, and helping builders to promote what they built. And this, one more time, it’s a multi-chain project and this project is able to tell to their user, guys, you can use what we built on several blockchains, but you have to know that on RTA, it’s at no cost, no transaction fees. I think people will make a try.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. In terms of your experience, I want to now touch upon, you know, you have extensive experiences, even you’ve advised like Tron, I think at some point.

How has that experience influenced your to your own chain development? And are there any particular lessons that, you know, you’ve imbibed from that particular experience that you are implementing now? Yes. Engaging a real, really strong, long-term oriented relation with builders. First, our users, in fact, are first builders and also enterprise.

You know, we have an onboarding process for project joining early. As part of this process, we submit the form and we ask them about their previous experience with our blockchain. And it’s always the same, a lack of support, nobody to talk to, no long-term relation, no marketing support.

So we really want to be dedicated to support project joining, helping them in this dev, introducing them to our project, engaging co-marketing action and supporting them and guiding them in the technical point of view. Okay. Yeah, I think those are very relevant things.

And, you know, you’re trying to, again, create a new chain. Is there any advice that you would like to give to folks who are perhaps thinking that they want to create an L1 as well? Because a lot of the sentiment in the space is that, you know, L2 is the way perhaps to go and, you know, implementing Rolax is perhaps another way to go. Do you have a take on that? And what would be your advice for somebody who wants to start a chain, say, today? You know, one more time, I do think that the future of Web3 will be multi-chain.

I do think that we have to simplify the end-user experience. I’m pretty sure that soon people will use dApps without knowing which blockchain they will use, because they don’t need to use. You don’t know when you use a web app, where you store your data, which data center.

You don’t care you use it. You can use several browsers. It’s up to you.

It will be the same. You can use Zoom, with Chrome, with Safari, with whatever. You don’t care.

You just use the product. And I do think that in the next few years, it will be the same. People will use one or several blockchains without knowing they use different blockchains.

So, simplifying the user experience, when you have to switch from one network to another one, it means you also need a native token on this network. It’s just too complicated. We forget that most of the people on Earth just can’t buy crypto first, so we are excluding them.

Now, we should come back to the initial premise of Web3, meaning decentralization, offering an alternative to a successful product we are using on a daily basis, but in a decentralized way. And as simple as it is for them. We criticize the social logging, but most of the people create an account now using Twitter, Facebook, Google, and that’s it.

If it’s good for them, it’s good. Let them do. And then maybe one day they will also create their own noncustodial wallet.

But why should I be forced to create a noncustodial wallet? To buy crypto first, secure my wallet, to just mint an NFT, which represents a free ticket to go to an event, to attend to an event. No sense. If I want, I should be able to use my email.

I don’t need crypto. I mint, boom. That’s it.

Yeah, it should be much more streamlined and simpler. I completely adhere to that. And I think we concur there as well.

So, you know, Luran, I think there’s been such an interesting conversation with what you guys are building. Again, I always have fun on these conversations. I completely lost track of time.

But I would like to ask two more questions before we wrap this up. One being, are there any major milestones or any kind of future plan that you’re looking forward to when it comes to Athera? You know, you had mentioned some, but is there any one particular milestone that you’re really looking forward to? The first one is to prepare an amazing experience for the grand opening. It’s starting mid-February.

So we have a lot of projects to onboard. Then the first AA, our native token listing at the end of March or beginning of April. And then engaging more and more Web3 builders to join.

Or even Web2 builders because we have a several no-code platform deployed on Athera. It will be really simple for anybody to create a smart contract without coding or creating an NFT marketplace or NFT collection. So I think it’s the best way.

I keep in mind our no-code platform in the Web2 history have contributed massively to a wider adoption. People forget that one of the first no-code platform have been is WordPress. It was really hard to to create a website previously.

It was all about coding and then WordPress. And then today you can use several solutions online. It’s a drag and drop.

You don’t need to know about coding to create your website using a template in a few minutes. So I do think it will be the same for Web3 up to us to offer the same smooth frictionless experience to anybody. So they will be able to use what we are all building, a decentralized alternative to existing solution.

Right. Yeah, I think that is very sound advice. Now, before we wrap this up, I would love to ask one thing that I end up asking everybody who comes on the show.

You know, you have had a very extensive experience, as you mentioned, you know, you’ve been in tech for 30 odd years and you’d made a leap from Web2 to Web3. What would be your advice for folks perhaps sitting on the same dilemma and they are in Web2 right now, perhaps they want to make a leap into Web3 and start building here. What would be your advice to them for them to be able to start living on blockchain? First of all, stay focused on building a real solution for real people, not being driven by trying to build the most innovative solution.

There is a lot of basic products that deliver a real tangible solution value. And so people use it. Keep it simple and stupid.

When it’s more complex, you lose people on the way. It’s one of the common mistakes we are doing all together in Web3. We complexify everything.

And as a basic human, we all know that the more complex it is, the less we are eager to experiment. It’s easy to tell that people should educate themselves. Education means having the time and the resource to do it.

Even if it’s free, most of the people are just focused on surviving. This is a basic reality. It’s easy to talk about banking the unbanked people.

But when it’s more expensive to send money or to pay than what they currently use, don’t expect that people will accept to overpay because it’s decentralized. We have to be pragmatic and come back to the basic reality. Stay focused on the reality.

Don’t overcomplicate things. Keep it simple and stupid. There is a lot of successful products on Web2.

Just have a look if you can offer a decentralized alternative with the same frictionless experience that people can appreciate and enjoy using a Web2 solution. Absolutely. I think the fundamentals remain the same all across.

It’s about solving a problem and doing it in an efficient manner, adding convenience to people’s lives, to your end-users’ lives, so that they would keep coming back to the product that you’ve created. That is wonderful advice, Laurent. Thank you so much for making the time to speak to me today.

This has been a truly wonderful conversation. Thanks. A real pleasure.

It’s a joke. A developer’s private joke. They often first create the problem to then create the solution.

We talk about the blockchain dilemma in order to have something to build to solve the blockchain dilemma, but people don’t care about the blockchain dilemma. They care about their real life and what they are facing on a daily basis, losing their privacy, being more and more dependent on the dominant actors. So first of all, I think just being focused on bringing an alternative and then in the same frictionless way, and then people can make a try.

Mass adoption will come more easily. Thanks a lot. It was a pleasure.

Thank you so much. I think no better way to wrap this up than with those thoughts, create real solutions for real people. Thank you so much, Laurent, once again.

Thanks to you.

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