Transcription Episode 19

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode on Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Shrikar. He is working with GoSAT, which is a Bitcoin rewards app.

So basically you get a few stats every time you kind of shop online and who doesn’t like free Bitcoin, right? So they’re on a mission to make a mass adoption for Bitcoin happen in India. He is also running Blockmanity. It was a real fun conversation where we touched upon a lot of topics and I hope you can find some insights with this particular conversation.

So let’s deep dive right in. Hi Shrikar, how are you? Hi Tarusha, I’m doing great. How are you? I’m doing well.

Thank you so much for taking out the time to speak to me today. Just for our listeners, could you tell us a little about your background and how you got into the blockchain space? Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much for having me and I love the name of your show, Living on Blockchain.

Okay, so a little bit about my background. I actually started out my career in the crypto space. I was heard about Bitcoin in around 2017, around April-May and I went to a meetup and it sounded very interesting.

It sounded like crazy. It sounded out of the world. It sounded like something that’s going to be thrilling.

And that’s what I was looking for at that time. I was just an engineering student and I had no idea what to do with my life. And I was looking to get into something really, as cliche as it sounds, something that could change the course of humanity.

And it took me a while to understand the whole Bitcoin rabbit hole, the crypto movement and how it’s going to have an impact. And so, yeah, I started a crypto blog called Blockmanity around early 2018 and it went pretty well. We got a bunch of traffic and we went viral on Reddit and it really went well.

So after that, I worked on a bunch of crypto projects. And now currently, from the past around seven months, I’ve been working on GoSats, which is a Bitcoin rewards app. Pretty exciting.

So we are building a Bitcoin rewards app for the Indian market. And basically where users get to shop, do their casual shopping and turn it into passive investing. They do that by shopping through us and we give them free Bitcoin rewards.

That’s what we’re working on right now. Yeah, so that is like super exciting. I think, you know, I think Lolly does something similar, you know, for abroad, for USD, etc.

And I was using Lolly earlier, but you know, Lolly has basically limited partnerships with Indian counterparts, right? So it’s fabulous what you’re doing. I think, you know, it’s a very cool and sneaky way of making sure that, you know, you are kind of investing also in Bitcoin and getting rewarded for your casual shopping. So I think it’s brilliant.

When do you think, you know, when do you have the iOS app that is going to be launched? I think it’s just on Android, right? Yep. So right now it’s on Android, iOS pretty soon, like very, very soon in a week or so. Yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to that because then I’ll have it on my phone and I usually use my Android phone is secondary.

So then, you know, I end up shopping via this, you know, the Apple phone and I always think about your app and how it would help me, you know, sort of show that I’m regularly putting in money when I’m shopping. It’s just, it would feel better, right? Not just spending money and like kind of investing as well at the same time. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. That’s the goal. Lovely.

So could you tell me a little about, you know, what is the vision for GoSats? Like how do you see it growing further? All right. So the way we got started with this is basically, you know, we thought we hear this term all the time. Master option of cryptocurrencies, master option of Bitcoin.

What does it actually mean, right? Does it mean that people are going to put all their savings into Bitcoin? Or does it mean investing? I don’t think so. I don’t think you can get, you know, hundreds of millions and billions of Indians into the cryptocurrency movement if you just position it as investing, right? Because as we know in India, I think total investors are around 50 million, if I’m not wrong, and that’s a small percentage of the population, right? And so how can we, you know, actually make master option happen in India? And the way to make it happen as may sound a bit absurd, but it’s putting free Bitcoin into people’s hands, right? That’s the way that you can actually make master option happen. So how can you do that? So there are brands in India, right? There are all brands and what do they want? They want sales.

And so if you give them customers, if you give them sales, they’re willing to pay a percentage of it as a commission. It’s already existing. It’s called affiliate marketing.

And so, you know, why not take that commission and give it to the user in the form of Bitcoin, which is the best performing asset in the last decade, right? So that’s the idea is that it’s a win-win for everyone because the brands get more sales, they get more users, and the users get free Bitcoin for their regular shopping. They’re not doing anything extra, right? They’re shopping the same way and then they’re getting rewarded for it for free. So that’s where it got really exciting.

And we really believe that, you know, this could actually make master option happen, not just like in paper, but in reality. And we’ve seen the success of a Lolly and Fold app in the US where there’s a tremendous amount of traction. And it’s such a no brainer.

Like, it’s so obvious. Like, wow, this is like free Bitcoin for shopping. Like, are you kidding me? It’s like so obvious.

And so, yeah, the vision of Gosax is to become the default wallet for Bitcoin in India. And to make master option happen. Yeah, no, I think that’s like an ideal vision that all of us kind of hold it, you know, master option come fast because people who are already in it, they kind of see how this is better.

Like, you know, the crypto side of things and decentralization and how the traditional monetary system is obsolete right now, and it’s kind of fleecing the users. So this is, I think, a lovely way to sort of make it a part of the daily life, because this is something that I keep talking about on this podcast with almost everybody who I talk to. They talk about master option.

They talk about how do we sort of go about making it into a habit of sorts, like a habit, which is so ingrained in the user behavior that it’s almost natural. And I think, you know, obviously your app is like tremendous way of making that happen. So more power to you guys, really.

So when did you guys like start with the app and what kind of traction have you seen? Yeah, so we launched our public beta about a couple of months back and we have around over 2,500 users as of now. And we’ve seen good traction. People are loving it.

And yeah, we can’t wait to launch the production release and, you know, get it rolling. So yeah, so that’s been, and we have around 25 brands as of now, and we already have over more than 100 brands on our portfolio and we are going to release them one by one very soon. We’re going to have Uber, we’re going to have Starbucks, we’re going to have all these amazing brands that, you know, people use it every day.

As you said, you were spot on on that. How can we make crypto a part of everyday usage, right? It should not be just that, you know, you invest some time and then you forget about it and then come back a year later or something like that. That’s not engaging, right? That’s not how you go about it.

And, but this thing, everyone uses cabs, everyone orders food, everyone shops and you do it almost like every week, every day. And so, yeah, that’s the goal is to get Bitcoin into people’s hands if they’re everyday users. Yeah, no, I think this is a tremendous step.

And, you know, as I said already, I think I’m a big, you know, big fan of what you’re doing and the idea and the way you guys are executing it, the way you’re saying that, you know, you’re kind of putting together all of these brands. These are brands that everybody kind of, in tier one cities at least, they use every day, they interact with them every day. And this will obviously, you know, increase the traction in terms of people who at least come to know of crypto and how Bitcoin can be like an asset.

So, yeah, absolutely good work there. But, you know, I’m a little curious about one thing. Have you seen traction from people who are perhaps not crypto users as well? Or has it been primarily from the crypto community that you’ve seen like a lot of, you know, users coming in? Yeah.

So initially, obviously, we’re targeting the crypto audience. This is low hanging fruit, right? It’s very easy to sell, right? You go and tell them you have free Bitcoin for your shopping. They’re like, of course, where do I sign up, right? That’s what we’re targeting right now.

And we do have a few users who are non-crypto users, right? So I’ll tell you like two stories, if that’s okay. One is about a student. He’s in school and he was aware of Bitcoin.

But obviously, he doesn’t have the money to invest in Bitcoin. He just knew about it and he got to know about Gosats. And then he, now what he has done is he’s basically gotten all of his families, all of his sisters from his mother, dad, all of their shopping through Gosats app.

Right. And he’s stacking Bitcoin in the process. So for them, it’s like whatever, right? They just want to shop.

They don’t care about all this, but he does want Bitcoin. So it’s like he’s getting his family members to shop and he’s stacking Bitcoin in the process. And that is something amazing.

Like, that’s like, that blew my mind. That’s like long-term thinking, right? He’s stacking stats and yeah, and his family doesn’t probably like have the clearest view of it. But, you know, that is actually a very good anecdote because if every, you know, even if a one member in a family kind of starts dealing or interacting with crypto in some way, the rest of the members of that particular family at least become, you know, kind of aware.

And then because the space is so dynamic and there is so much to learn that, you know, you kind of can’t help that, you know, the learning will come. That hyper growth of learning will come. And I think that’s, that is like, you know, brilliant.

Like, you know, you’re catching them when they are young. So obviously you will have it. So brilliant.

Nice. As Bob says, it’s a virus that can’t be stopped. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we’ve known too much about viruses now in the last past one year or so.

Probably we should change it to something else. Virus is no longer a cool word. Yeah, it’s not.

So it was never a cool word, but at least, you know, and now we’ve understood like a little virus, how kind of havoc that it can sort of create all around the world. So, you know, now talking about the virus, did you see any change in user behavior during this COVID time and during the lockdown? I mean, we launched a couple of months back. So, yeah, we’ve launched in the midst of the COVID times.

So, yeah, people are shopping online more and more. People have shifted their offline shopping into online shopping. I’ve seen this behavior like everywhere, even in myself, you know, with most of the people.

And that’s good. Good for our business. Because, yeah, we are obviously an online shopping portal, obviously.

So, yeah. Nice. Yeah.

So I think this is something that this is a trend that has been happening all over the world, I believe. Even in my own family, I think my parents are now more keen on, you know, online shopping when they were not before. But in the past year, like we couldn’t really step out.

So obviously people had to switch their behavior. And it’s wonderful that, you know, you’re becoming a part of the new economy, so to say. Once you kind of get ingrained into the, as I said, into the user behavior, there’s going to be no stopping you.

So really, I absolutely love the idea and I absolutely love your execution of it as well. So more and more power to you. I would suggest, you know, perhaps getting in, like, I don’t know if you have it already, but maybe like getting a Chrome extension in place as well.

Because a lot of people like use their laptop and computers to sort of shop online. At least my parents do. And it would be a nice way to sort of get them involved as well.

What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we do have Chrome extension in our roadmap.

And we thought like we launched the Chrome extension first, but then we saw the data and we saw that, you know, majority of Indians prefer to shop on their phone because the penetration is huge there. And a lot of people don’t. And also the option of Chrome extensions in India is pretty disappointing.

In fact, a lot of people don’t use Chrome extension. So, yeah, that’s why we went the mobile route first. Absolutely.

Chrome extension is definitely on our roadmap because it’s so much easier to do. The experience is so much better, right? You’re shopping anyway, going to that website and then the Chrome extension, you know, shows a pop up or something that, you know, hey, activate your Bitcoin rewards. And then you just you’re shopping and then credited into the wallet.

It’s a superb experience. Yeah. Makes it more seamless.

Yeah. Lovely, lovely. So right now you’re more India focused.

Do you have plans to go global as well? Or are you going to concentrate for India or not? Yeah, for now, definitely. We want to focus on the Indian market and then maybe think about extension plans in the long term for sure. Excellent.

So now talking about India, it kind of comes back to the same question of policy. So what is your take on policy creation or potential policy creation in India vis-a-vis crypto? Oh, yeah. That’s a hot topic.

Yeah. So, yeah, policy wise. I mean, it’s a trend, right? Like I’ve been reading about other technologies as well in India.

The thing about India is that technology takes forever to get like it’s like a boulder. Like if you think about it as a boulder that’s going uphill, right? It takes forever for the boulder to go from bottom to the top of the hill. And it’s pretty slow in India.

You look at desktop adoption. If you look at mobile adoption and if you look at Internet, if you look at any of the technology trends, right? India is always late, lags behind. But when it catches on, when the infrastructure is built, when the regulators understand that, OK, this is something that makes sense, when everything is cleared, when the companies actually come, the innovators come, oh my God, it’s like tsunami.

It’s like unstoppable. If you look at Internet usage, right? Indians dominate the Internet today. And still like millions of Indians are able to join it, you know.

And look at UPI. UPI surpassed all the usage. UPI literally surpassed debit card, credit card and mobile wallets, online banking, more than that, UPI has been getting more traction.

And it’s been just two or three years since it was launched. Look at any of the trends, right? And that’s a very positive feeling because it does take a lot of time. But once it hits, it’s like unstoppable.

It’s like the adoption is insane. Yeah, it’s primarily. I’m sorry, there’s a lag.

Please go ahead. There’s a lag. Please go ahead.

Yeah. So I think the similar trend is going to happen with crypto where I think the regulators are a bit skeptical about it. And they are, you know, they don’t understand fully the impact of it, I feel.

And, you know, we’ve had a lot of, like, I don’t blame the regulators because we’ve had a lot of, you know, hit of things with crypto in the past, you know, five years with a lot of scammers, with a lot of Ponzi schemes and stuff. And the education has not been really good. I think we have to do that as, you know, industry people.

We have to educate people and guide them towards the right path and make sure that they avoid all these shady projects. With that, I think I’m very positive on the outlook. If you look at the after the Supreme Court hearing in last year, I think it’s been phenomenal.

Like a lot of projects have been going in, a lot of funding has been flowing in, a lot of people are very positive. And I think that’s going to continue. I don’t see it stopping anytime soon.

So, yeah, I think it’s going to be positive for the next decade. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, that is something I always feel a little unsure because in India, you know, we tend to have a little bit of a knee jerk reaction at times.

But yeah, I also feel overall on a very macro level, I feel that I have a positive sentiment around the policy that, you know, potentially might come up considering the kind of numbers, right, like India has in terms of people who fall in the young bracket. It is absolutely necessary that a policy kind of, you know, supports the youth in driving in the innovation for the country. As you mentioned that once, you know, it starts in India, it takes off like nothing else.

It’s primarily because everybody has a mobile phone in their pocket and, you know, usually ready to sort of take that leap once they see the benefit. Right. So, yeah, I feel on a macro level, you know, positive towards policy as well.

So talking about policy and, you know, taking things on a global scale, are there any projects that, you know, you are rooting for currently, apart from your own, which, you know, you think are doing extremely well? Yeah, so many. So I would like to like highlight a couple of them. So one is MakerDAO.

I’ve been a fan of MakerDAO for a long time because what they’ve created is truly amazing, right? If you think about it, it’s like they are able to, you know, create a dollar or a dollar. It’s not really a dollar because it’s there’s no dollar involved there. It’s backed by ETH, right? But it’s they’ve created dollar valued system where without actually having any dollars or without even having any banks, without having any of that infrastructure, with just crypto asset backing.

And that’s mind blowing. That can be done basically for any currency or any you can create new currencies, right? You can create new sort of value with different, different assets. And that is truly like mind blowing to me.

And I think that’s one of the most exciting projects, definitely MakerDAO. And the other would be, I would say FoldApp US, right? Because the way they’ve gone is pretty interesting. They were one of the first companies to integrate Lightning into their platform.

And they’re able to, they have both, you can stack Bitcoin as well as spend Bitcoin through Lightning. And I think Lightning is going to be like crucial and it’s going to be game changer for the next five years. Because if you think about it, the only bottleneck for Bitcoin right now is its throughput.

And it doesn’t make sense for people to, you know, for example, if they want to spend Bitcoin for their coffee, why would you do it on the main network, right? I mean, it’s like people are buying houses in Bitcoin and people are also spending for coffee in the same network with the same security. That makes totally no sense. And so it only makes sense to go on layer two, layer three, and then build that out for high throughput and then keep the layer one for high security, high value transactions.

And that’s the, I think the evolution of Bitcoin that’s going to happen in Lightning. And the startups that are going to work on Lightning and integrate Lightning are going to be game changers. That’s going to make Bitcoin a medium of exchange.

Right now we are in the store of value phase, right? The phases of money, which is famously talked about, which is store of value, medium of exchange, and sorry, store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account, right? So Bitcoin is kind of like store of value right now. And it has to go to the medium of exchange stage next. And I think Lightning is going to make that happen.

And it’s going to be extremely exciting. And I think hold is doing a phenomenal job with that. And they’ve also launched their Bitcoin bank pretty phenomenal.

Yeah. Yeah. They’re doing something very similar to like what you are doing.

And yeah, they have launched a card recently. And I think that kind of makes it even more exciting. The fact that, you know, you can actually spend these, you know, crypto currencies, holdings in real time.

And, you know, your point about the Lightning network is very well taken, because obviously there is that problem where there is a bottleneck with Bitcoin, is how long it at times takes for the transactions to process. And obviously with Lightning, that kind of goes away. So yeah, I think, I believe I have been following both of these projects for a very long time too.

And they are doing a tremendous job as well. So are there any like content creators or books that you would like to recommend to our listeners who are kind of, you know, trying to get into this space? So off the top of my head, so I’ve not really read a lot of crypto books, but because, you know, you write a book on crypto today and a month later, it’s outdated. It’s obsolete.

Yeah. So can I like divulge and recommend a book that’s not related to crypto? Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. So a book that blew my mind was called, it’s called Compound Effect. And the author’s name, I can’t, I’m not going to butcher his name by pronouncing it, but it’s called the Compound Effect.

And it’s truly mind-blowing because one of the things that our human brains that can’t comprehend is the exponential growth and compound effect, right? Compound interest, if you can see. This is the book by Darren Hardy, right? This is the book by Darren Hardy you are referring to, right? I’m not sure about the author. Okay.

Yeah, because I had read that and I thought it was absolutely brilliant. It’s kind of, it does a very good job of explaining, you know, this is something so obvious and it is a part of our life, but people are not able to kind of leverage it because they are not being very conscious about it. Absolutely.

Absolutely. As Bill Gates says, people overestimate what happens in one year and underestimate what can happen in 10 years. That’s like so true, right? I mean, if you keep the consistency going and keep it going right in the long term, it can have tremendous effects.

And that is one more thing that’s exciting about India is that things go slow, but then the compound effect actually takes place and it’s mind-blowing. Yeah. No, so I think that is essentially, you know, for your app as well, that is what’s going to happen, right? People who become like long-term users, they will stand to benefit a lot because compound effect will kick in at some point.

And, you know, and then we’ll have all of these millionaires running around using your app. Yeah, Satoshi millionaires, right? Yeah, Satoshi millionaires. Absolutely.

No, I think that book was wonderful. I had also read it, I think sometime last year I had gone through it and I found the kind of way Darren has explained, you know, the compound effect with the various examples. It kind of blows your mind once you start reading it because it’s so obvious and it’s so, it’s right there in front of our faces.

But somehow we are not able to leverage it because we never really consciously think about it. Exactly. Yeah.

And we can’t comprehend the craziness of it, right? The exponential nature. Yeah, I believe. So not everybody is like a numbers person.

And then, you know, when you see those numbers, actually, like in right in front of you in the book with all those examples, it’s absolutely mind blowing that, you know, you did not figure out these stats yourself. So I think that’s a very, very good recommendation. I would say that everybody should read that book just to sort of see how compound effect can help you and not just finance.

I think, you know, every sphere of your life, like if you want to look at any kind of, you know, skills upgradation as well, because all the time I hear people say a lot, you know, about how they don’t have time. And what they don’t understand is that, you know, perhaps starting right now, but starting small will also add up to something one day. Exactly.

It’s about the consistency. Like, for example, if you want to get in shape, right? You don’t have to go to the gym two hours every day. You can do an exercise for 10 minutes, but you have to do it every day.

But the thing is, people don’t understand compound effect. So they don’t, they’re not consistent. It’s very hard.

Like a very few people are actually consistent for months together. And people that are consistent, they see tremendous results after, you know, like a year or so. And it’s, yeah, it’s truly amazing.

It blows my mind every time. Yeah, every time, every time. And that’s a book that I keep coming, you know, going back to, because it has all of these good examples.

And yeah, as you said, it blows my mind every time too. So, yeah, that’s a very, very good recommendation. I think nobody’s recommended compound effect until now.

People keep talking about Internet of Money and all the other books that are very crypto centric. And that’s, those are wonderful books. But this book kind of talks about behavioral changes.

I think like another book that kind of does a very good job around this is Atomic Habits. So, you know, it’s something very similar. Perhaps you can take a look at that as well.

If you, you know, if this compound effect kind of was beneficial to you. Oh yeah, absolutely. Excellent.

So, you know, apart from books, there are like a ton of content creators and tons of influencers in the crypto space. Who would you say are like doing a good job? Or, you know, maybe like, let me put it another way. Who would you say people should follow to get the right kind of information? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

So the first guy that I ever saw on YouTube explained Bitcoin to me was Andreas Antonopoulos. I think there’s no one else like him. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, that’s the number one, right? It’s like there’s no one that can explain the entirety of Bitcoin like Andreas. Absolutely no one. And he does a phenomenal job.

And I think everyone should definitely follow Riyaz and watch his videos. And one more would be that I follow is Pomp. I’m a fan of Pomp.

He puts out amazing content. And sometimes he says these crazy, outrageous things. But I think that’s kind of good.

He makes it work. He makes it work also, right? It works out. We need contrarians, right? We should not have people who think the same.

And we need different opinions. And we know what’s going to happen in the future. And so I think Pomp is a great recommendation.

Yeah, those are two very good examples. I think Andreas Antonopoulos, his content is available in every form, right? It’s there in the form of audio books, in physical books, in form of videos. So however you like kind of consuming content, it’s there and you should take a look there.

And obviously Pomp is crazy, but he’s fun and he’s knowledgeable. And it’s a lot of fun to see what he comes up with. And you know what you mentioned here? This is, I think, this is very important.

And I think people kind of lose track of this over the years. It’s important to interact with contrarians as well, right? You can’t have people who are always thinking alike, kind of, and just interacting and consuming their content. Because how would you grow then, right? Absolutely, yeah.

Lovely. So, you know, this is a kind of, there’s been a very insightful chat. So if you had to give like financial advice, which, you know, I am sure that you’ll come, it’ll come with a disclaimer.

But if you had to sort of give out financial advice to somebody who is starting off or who wants to like see how to diversify his portfolio. What would be the top five projects you would say they should definitely have in their portfolio? Oh, man. So I definitely, I would give financial advice.

And if you’re starting out, definitely, definitely start off with Bitcoin. And of course, the cliche advice is don’t put in more money than you can use. I think the best way for people to get educated and actually have some Bitcoin, have some skin in the game, right? When people don’t have skin in the game, that’s when, you know, they don’t understand the depth of it.

And I think people should, you know, whatever, like, or just tax projects for free, right? And like get some Bitcoin, like some Bitcoin, it doesn’t matter. And that will give you the incentive to, you know, look into it and understand what’s happening. And what’s, and it’ll increase your belief in Bitcoin or disbelief, whichever, right? And I think that’s the first step that everyone should take.

And obviously I’m a fan of Ethereum. Yeah, definitely. They’re doing fantastic stuff, but I don’t eat his money.

I don’t fall into that narrative. I think the best statement that I’ve come across, BTC and ETH, right? The wars that go through. The Bitcoin network exists to support BTC.

And the ETH token exists to power the Ethereum network. Like what that means is basically that the product in Bitcoin is the 21 million BTC token, which is the product of the Bitcoin network, the main product. The Bitcoin network exists to support this system, right? And for ETH, the product is the Ethereum network itself.

People are building on top of it. People are building DeFi on top of it. People are using smart contracts.

The product is the network itself. And ETH token exists to support that network, for that network to exist, right? So I think that’s the best line that I’ve come across. And that makes a lot of sense to me.

And if you look at it, it’s very clear, right? It becomes very clear as to how you should invest and all that. And after that, it’s up to people how they can diversify their portfolio. So another, like, of course, I meant to work it out.

But I think another very impressive and very important infrastructure is Cosmos, which is the inter-blockchain protocol. And that’s so obvious. Like, of course, you’re going to have tons of blockchain.

And of course, they need to communicate with each other. And of course, we can’t do it directly because all these infrastructures are built differently. You need a middleman who is centralized, who does not take away value proposition of all these blockchains.

And that is, I think, Cosmos is doing a fantastic job. So, yeah, that was, I think, four, right? Including Micronet. And fifth one that I’m most excited about is the Filecoin IPFS.

I think that’s really exciting. I mean, of course, if you’re building the Web3 stack, then storage is crucial. The most critical aspect of it.

And it’s very ironic and funny, right? When these so-called, quote-unquote, decentralized projects run on AWS and they run on centralized storage solutions. It’s like, what’s the point, right? What’s the point of building a decentralized solution on a centralized storage where that’s the central point of failure, right? And it only makes sense that we have an IPFS where the storage also is uncensorable and it’s decentralized. And it has a similar architecture that the decentralized networks are built upon.

And I think Filecoin is the best project that I’ve seen there. So, yeah, those are the five projects that I’m most excited about. But I don’t recommend you invest anything you don’t lose that you can’t lose.

Of course, I’m not a financial advisor. So, yeah, that disclaimer is out. Yeah, obviously.

But this is like a good portfolio, I think. It’s diversified between tokens that actually have real utility. And obviously, the old ones, the oldies and goldies.

And you have MakerDAO. So, it’s a good portfolio. And I think those are really good recommendations in terms of projects.

Now, when we are talking about Ethereum and dApps, what is your take on DeFi? There’s a lot of noise around DeFi these days. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, DeFi is also such a no-brainer that, you know, obviously, we are going to have… So, it’s like this, right? So, we have the traditional financial system, right? Where the Internet is not really an integral part of it.

It’s all built offline. It’s all built on offline contracts, on paper notes and that and this. And all the infrastructure is designed 30 years ago, right? And now we have DeFi where everything is native to the Internet.

And so, there is no concept of countries here, right? Because there’s no concept of countries on the Internet. Because the Internet is the same everywhere, right? And DeFi is like that. It’s built on the Internet.

And so, there’s no concept of countries or arbitrary rules that apply to one jurisdiction and don’t apply to other jurisdictions. And I think that’s a natural evolution that, you know, is going to go forward. And it’s going to reach a point… Right now, I think DeFi is still not big enough for the regulators to really worry about it.

But I think it’s going to reach again the same point. And this is just true for Bitcoin as well, where there’s a conflict between the open financial system, which is DeFi and the traditional financial system. And I really don’t know what’s going to be the result of that.

I think it makes sense that open financial systems will succeed. And it is obviously better in so many ways because you don’t have the inefficiencies and the arbitrary rules and all the inefficiencies that have been there in traditional systems. You don’t have it in DeFi.

But also, there’s a lot of infrastructure, a lot of thinking that has to go and a lot of evolution that has to happen in DeFi as well. And also, it’s going to reach to a critical point where these two are going to clash. And I don’t really know who will win or where it’s going to go from there.

But yeah, it’s definitely exciting. And that clash, I don’t know when it will happen. Maybe 5 years from now, 10 years from now.

But it’s bound to happen. Yeah, I think that is absolutely true. I think that there’s going to be a clash.

But I do believe that they have to kind of mutually coexist. And they will with more people sort of seeing the benefits from both parts of the spectrum. Now that we are talking about DeFi, there’s another thing that’s been making a lot of waves.

NFTs are very hot right now. Are you investing in NFTs currently? Not really. I don’t really know.

I’m not really delved deep into NFTs yet. But yeah, the concept is basically digital scarcity. And it works.

We know that it works because Bitcoin works. So obviously, NFTs are going to work. But yeah, I think one use case that I saw that was interesting was in the music field.

Where you have NFTs for artists. And that is truly exciting. Because there’s one industry that is so kind of corrupt.

And what do you say? It’s very ruled by oligarchs across the world, right? The music industry. And that doesn’t give the creators the freedom to be their own bosses. And I think with NFTs, that can really have a huge impact on creative freedoms.

And give the creators their own freedom to reach some audience. Have their own distribution. Have their own system.

Even their audience get to benefit with them. And it’s a beautiful system. I think NFTs in the music industry makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. I think you’ve made a good point there. NFTs in music industry or anything that is artwork and all of that.

It really is a very exciting space. And obviously, there’s a lot of noise around. And I think it’s rightly so.

I think now people are discovering how NFTs can be sort of useful. And put to use in our use case scenarios in virtually so many sectors. So, yeah.

It’s a very exciting space to be. So, yeah. This has been like a really, really exciting and a very insightful conversation.

I think I’ve got to know you a little bit more. And, you know, that kind of brings me to the last question that I usually put forth. To all the people who come on the show.

What would be your two suggestions for somebody to start living on blockchain? Somebody who’s like peering in from the outside. And wants to get into this space but feels a little intimidated. What would be your suggestion? My suggestion obviously first would be to understand Bitcoin.

Get a hold of some Bitcoin and dive into the rabbit hole. And it’s going to be a long process. It’s not going to be.

You’re not going to understand it in one week or one month. It’s going to take a long time. It took a long time for me.

And it’s going to take a long time for you. And I think that is like. It’s like Bitcoin is like.

Yeah. It sounds insane. But Bitcoin is kind of like a portal.

You know, to enter like a different rabbit hole. So many different. Like a different way of thinking.

It changes the way you think. It changes the outlook of the world. And it’s like.

I can’t explain it. It’s like you have to experience it. So yeah.

Definitely my suggestion would be to dive into Bitcoin. Understand it. Research about it.

And yeah. That would be my suggestion. Yeah.

I think, you know. A lot of people get intimidated by the fact that it seems like too techy. And too nerdy.

And they don’t really understand the technology. And they kind of back off. And my suggestion to them is always like.

Get your hands on like. You know. A few Satoshis.

At least. And this is also. You know.

Like it’s so obvious to us. But this is also like a misconception that a lot of people have. That you know.

You can actually buy a part of a Bitcoin. You don’t have to buy a whole Bitcoin. And you know.

Yeah. So you can. You know.

You can buy a part of a Bitcoin. And you can start your journey there. As you said.

It’s like a rabbit hole. Like no other. You know.

The kind of learning that you will see. Would be absolutely hyper. Because you learn so much.

You learn about the traditional monetary system. You learn about economics. You learn a little about history.

And once you. You know. Start diving.

I think the learning never stops. Like I learn every day. Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean. Learning is forever.

Right. There’s no. Yeah.

And this conception in India. That you know. Once you go to college.

You learn there. And then that’s it. You’re set for life.

You don’t have to learn. Yeah. That is like.

Such a misconception. That is when you start learning. Actually.

Not end learning. So yeah. Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is. Like another. University.

Where you know. It starts another learning process. And it’s.

A misconception. Or what do you say. A misguided thing.

Is that people. Tend to delve deep. Into the tech.

Of blockchains. And bitcoin. But that’s not actually necessary.

Right. We don’t. Yeah.

For example. We don’t know. How the internet works.

Like a lot of people. Understand. How the internet protocols work.

Everyone uses the internet. And everyone gets the internet. They understand.

That the internet. Is a way. To you know.

Transfer information. Across the world. Right.

And it’s. Just like that. Blockchains are.

Able to transfer value. Across the world. And that value can be anything.

And if they understand that. That’s good enough. It’s more about.

The philosophy of bitcoin. That I think is more. Exciting.

Than. For a lot of people. I think they should look into.

The philosophy of it. And why did they start. And all that.

Rather than. You know. Worrying too much about the tech.

And getting overwhelmed by it. So yeah. Absolutely.

I think you’ve. Put it in a very. Succinct and.

Amazing manner. That you do. And not everybody understands.

You gave the example. Of internet. I’ll give you an even.

You know clearer example. Not everybody understands. How kind of.

Electricity works. Right. But everybody uses it.

Right. It’s become a part of our lives. Yeah.

So you just need to. See what is in it. For you.

Because there is so much. There. That you know you can utilize.

In your day to day. Life. Absolutely.

So I have. Before we end. I have one question.

For you. Sure. What are you most excited.

For. In 2021. Oh.

I think. You know. This entire.

DeFi boom. Is going to. See new waves.

I believe. That there will be. Financial services.

That will be. You know. Far better.

Than the traditional ones. That will be kind of. Offered in this blockchain space.

I believe. That we will see more adoption. Because you know.

These financial services. That kind of add to. Convenience.

For the end user. They will. Stay.

You know. They’ll come in vogue. They’ll stay in vogue.

And that will lead to. Higher adoption. Because when people see.

That they’re you know. Perhaps they’re getting a better return. And when they see.

That their money is performing. Somewhere better. Then they would.

Everybody wants to sort of. Create and preserve wealth. Right.

And I think. DeFi. You know.

The DeFi space. Kind of gives you. A different portal all together.

To perhaps you know. Look. And see.

And learn. And actually. You know.

Start. Practicing. A financial hygiene.

Which might have been missing. From your life earlier. Oh yeah.

Absolutely. That will be fine. Yeah.

Lovely. This has been such a good conversation. Shikhar.

Any parting thoughts. Before we wrap this up. Yeah.

So that’s it. From my side. This was amazing.

Really. Like we. Think we got so much.

Like. Yeah. Everything from Bitcoin.

By. Philosophy. To compound effect.

And yeah. It was a really. I think.

I hope. Everyone took something. Meaningful from this.

Yeah. Absolutely. I’m sure that you know.

Our listeners. Would be able to take something. Meaningful from this particular conversation.

I think we covered a lot here. Thank you so much. Again.

For sort of taking out the time. To speak to me. It was a lovely chat.

Hey. Thanks. It’s been a pleasure.

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