Transcription Episode 48

Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Avinash. Avinash is the founder of TaxNodes.

He was earlier the CFO and then the CEO of Zebpay as well, one of India’s oldest exchanges. It is very exciting what he is doing at TaxNodes. It is helping users in making their tax value the thing of the past.

A very insightful conversation and really good book recommendations as well, which we are going to be linking up in the description. So do check it out, do sign up on TaxNodes. And we would love to know how your experience was with TaxNodes so that you can help other fellow crypto traders as well.

So let’s deep dive right in. Great, Tarusha, how are you doing? I’m doing wonderfully well. Thank you so much for asking.

Thank you for making time to speak to our listeners and tell us a little about your journey. But for our listeners, first of all, let’s get started with an intro. How did you get into Web3? What are you building currently? Yeah, so first of all, Tarusha, really glad to be here.

Thanks for this opportunity. About myself, so I am basically an accountant. I mean, I’m a chartered accountant, qualified like in 1998.

So being mostly into finance field throughout my career, hardcore account finance taxation. How I started in Web3, Oblique Crypto space. So I started in around 2017, mid of 2017, when I joined Web3 as a CFO.

And frankly speaking, I didn’t know anything about Bitcoin or Web3 or crypto at that point of time. I had some vague, I mean, I had heard the term Bitcoin and that’s about it. That’s what my knowledge about Bitcoin is actually.

And I was initially very reluctant to obviously join Zebpay. But spent lots of time with the founders at that point of time. Finally decided that, OK, let’s take a plunge.

Let’s see what it is, basically. But once I started, I mean, there was no going back, so to say. And we’ll cover that maybe in detail a little bit later.

But yeah, so that’s how my journey started into crypto. OK, so, you know, you mentioned that you were not, you were initially a little skeptical, right, about getting into Web3. So can you share a little about what made you skeptical and then what made you, you know, turn a leaf, basically and become a believer? Yes.

So actually usual questions. I mean, anyone even today, like when I talk to people who are like really new in crypto and the same questions I had, like it is not backed by anything, what it is, it’s like just for speculation. So all those kind of stuff.

And obviously, there is no regulatory clarity from the government. So all those questions I had, obviously, I didn’t know about the underlying technology. I didn’t know how Bitcoin works, basically.

So all those questions. And in fact, I spent a significant amount of time with our tech founder, JetPay tech founder, Mahindra at that point of time. And I was not like totally convinced, but I realized there is something beyond kind of just speculation here, kind of at that point of time.

And that’s why I decided to join. And I think when you really start understanding Bitcoin, I mean, then there is no going back. I mean, you really start challenging all the fundamental beliefs that you held for the entire of your life.

Okay, I’m a finance guy. So understanding money, understanding how the economic system works. I mean, I used to think that I know relatively well, so to say.

But then I realized that what we are taught in the school or it’s not really, I mean, that doesn’t prepare you to, it’s like an eye opener, so to say. How really things work, basically. Yeah, you know, I do think that for a lot of us when working in Web3 currently, when initially we got into the Web3 space, it was quite an eye opening affair.

And then I call it like the Web3 rabbit hole. But you know, once you go down that rabbit hole, it’s really hard to come back because, you know, there is no way that you wouldn’t be convinced. Because actually, the way the financial system works right now, it has a lot of loopholes.

Yeah, yeah, that’s right. I mean, there is no way that if you spend like enough hours studying about Web3, crypto, Bitcoin, there’s no way you will not be convinced. Absolutely.

So, you know, what are you working on currently? I know what you’re doing, but for our listeners, can you tell us a little about TaxNodes and, you know, how it can benefit the end user? Yeah, so I’ll tell you the first thing, what is the concept, how I thought about it, basically. I’m obviously Zebpay, I started as a CFO, became CEO over a period of time. Okay, so I had a fairly good understanding in terms of obviously crypto as a business guy, as a use case and crypto as a finance guy.

And then government across the world are coming up with regulations around crypto, they’re at different stages. And they’re also coming up with tax laws, which goes in a way hand to hand, basically. So what I realized was that if the crypto ecosystem or Web3 ecosystem needs to move to the next level, then at some level, it has to work with the government.

Okay, it has to convince a large number of people. And for that to happen, regulation and tax compliance is going to play a very, very important role. Okay.

And the overall theme is that how do we ensure that this space, which is, in my opinion, is like, maybe one or two out of 10, in terms of, let’s say, being ready for compliance and regulation? How do we if you want to become a financial institution kind of industry, then we have to move to let’s say 7, 8, 9. Okay. So that was a thought process. And there are not many people who are thinking around this area of Web3.

Okay. People are obviously rightly focused on building businesses, which has to be done. But someone needs to think about this aspect also in terms of regulation, taxation.

So that was an entire thought process. And obviously, Indian government clarified on taxation on crypto, which is obviously much higher than or much stringent than what we were expecting earlier. But it is whatever it is right now.

So my new startup basically is helping individuals to comply with the tax law of the land to pay their taxes. And it is complicated to calculate. Tax laws are also slightly complicated.

So what we are building is an automated kind of engine where a normal guy can basically sync their transactions across exchanges, across, let’s say, decentralized platforms or NFTs. Basically, wherever they are doing transactions in Web3, they can bring or sync all those transactions on our platform and get a consolidated view. What is it? How much money they made? How much loss they made? And what is the taxation which is due to the government as per the current laws, basically.

So that’s what we have built. Okay. So currently, so this is not very interesting.

So currently, is a user able to go on tax notes and sign up and set this up on their own? Or is there some intervention, you know, from your end as well? Like if a user signs up, how does it work? How are you coping to all of these exchanges? So it’s a mix of things. First of all, users can go on their own and do it. Obviously, we have guides and all that there.

And in terms of integration with exchanges, obviously, some of the exchanges have open APIs. We integrate the APIs and customer can then directly sync their wallet and transactions there. Similarly, on the blockchain, you can basically give your wallet address and we can sync the data from there.

In some cases where exchanges don’t have public APIs open. Okay. In that case, they can download the Excel and we have our system is that it can ingest the same format, so to say.

So all the methods are available, whichever is applicable to a different source of data, basically. Plus, I mean, obviously, we handle the customers also, because again, this is also even this is slightly complicated to an average user. So we handhold through the entire process.

Okay. So and what about like decentralized exchanges? So, you know, you mentioned that user can put in their wallet address and then you can map it, map the data or the transactions associated with it. Is that the way that it will work for Dexel? Is that the way? That it works with decentralized exchanges as well? So if somebody is using a centralized exchange? Yes.

So it works the same similar manner in decentralized exchanges. Okay. So we have right now around, I think, 200 exchanges, oblique decentralized exchanges, oblique blockchains, which are synced.

So the idea is that since we are doing only Indian customers as of now, or at least currently, so it covers maybe 95 percent or more where Indians invest, basically. And we continuously keep on obviously adding different sources there. All right.

Okay. That’s awesome. So this is something like what CoinX is doing as well.

Like, would that be a fair comparison to make? Yes. Yes, that’s right. That’s right.

It’s a fair comparison. Awesome. Okay, awesome.

So that is like this is a huge problem point, I think, for a lot of users, because as you said, it’s really complicated. It’s really complicated and aggregating the data is very tedious. So, you know, you’re making it easier for the end user to stay on the right side of the law and still indulge in crypto.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is another actually point, which is, which is rather like peculiar. In a sense that, till like last year, I mean, before let’s say 1st April 2022.

Okay. A large number or majority of the crypto investors, in my opinion, had convinced themselves that there is no taxation on crypto. Okay.

And they wrongly convinced themselves, basically, because it’s a very big misnomer that the crypto taxation started from 1st April 2022. So, I mean, if you have made any gains in crypto, even before 1st April 2022, you are supposed to calculate your taxation and basically pay your taxes. Okay.

What the new laws have done is that they have like bring, they brought focus on this area, that there are lots of non-compliances, whether knowingly or unknowingly happening in this area. Yeah, basically. So, education also becomes like a very, very important part that like any other income, crypto income is also taxable and it would be compliant with the law.

Absolutely. I think education plays a big part in Web3 in total. I think every aspect of Web3 and crypto comes with its own learning curve and education that needs to be there because the end user is like any of us, not just end users.

I think we are all like learning on the go. So, first, what is like your business model like? So, do you charge on the compilation or the data aggregation? Or are you charging exchanges? No, we are not charging exchanges. We are charging directly from the customer.

And obviously, we are charging based on like a number of transactions. So, if you have like some number of transactions, it’s free. Then based on the higher number of the transactions, obviously, the price goes up in terms of what we charge.

And it’s like a one-time like for a year, what we charge. Okay. Awesome.

Awesome. Awesome. So, that is good that the user doesn’t have to keep paying.

So, do you also help with the filing of the taxes? Or is it just the data and then you give out the steps? Yeah, no. So, what we are building is actually we are building a like end-to-end system where we calculate your crypto taxes. If there is you are facing any IRV, any problem, we provide like expert support kind of thing.

We also help file your income tax returns. Okay. And what we are also planning is that we’ll help you if let’s say because what I’m expecting is that lots of customers will receive notices from the income tax department because it’s the first year.

So, we are planning to provide help to the customer even in those in that basically that how do you reply to the notices if you receive from income tax department. Okay. Awesome.

Yeah. So, you know, this is something that this kind of reminds me of what Nemesh had posted a few days back. He was one of the people who had received notices last year sometime, I believe.

Basically, it kind of made me also understand and I think it was a very good thread about how if you are sharing the right data, then you can come to a reasonable conclusion. So, that was like a good thread. It was very hopeful because usually the perception is that if we get a notice or something, then it’s like the endgame.

Yeah. Actually, you have to actually keep another thing in mind is that when I said that till last year, no one actually in my opinion, no literally no one filed their crypto gains. I mean, already like less than 1% people would have filed.

Okay. So, now what will happen is that this year you file the return. Okay.

And you also need to now consider what happened in last two, if you’re trading in crypto from last 3-4 years. Okay. And you have not declared your income from last 2-3 years, 4 years kind of.

Then you have to assess what happened in last few years also. Because there is more than usual chance that you will get a notice from the department. And then you should not be scrambling at that point of time to collect data.

And so that activity I think should also happen before you file this year return. Kind of so that you have at least in mind that, okay, this is what happened in last 4 years. Right.

Absolutely. I think it’s good to err on the side of caution here rather than get tangled up in messy situations. And it’s amazing that TaxNode can really help the end user in navigating this very complex area.

So, that is wonderful. Now, moving beyond TaxNode and what you’re building as a platform, how do you stay updated with the trends and with the web 3 space in general? Because there’s always so much happening, right? What is your go-to way of making sure that you are staying ahead of the curve? Yeah. Actually, I mean, various publications, Twitter is obviously a wonderful resource.

Following Nimish, Kastev, Nischal, I mean, all these people, I mean, there is a great source of information there. So, that is one way. And another is that, for example, it may not be crypto, but I think general liberal thought or liberal in Australian economics, which I think crypto or Bitcoin is closely related to.

So, Mises Institute is like another one, which generally is like very, very thought-provoking articles you’ll find there. So, yeah, I mean, similar. And obviously, books are there.

Andres Entrepolis, another one comes to mind, a really great guy. Yes, his content is wonderful. Like Internet of Money, all the volumes, you know, I usually recommend it to anyone who is trying to get into web 3. Yes.

So, actually, another one or two books, actually, I recommend to everyone kind of, I mean, obviously, everyone knows about Bitcoin standard, fiat standard. Okay. So, there is a book called The Sovereign Individual.

Okay. Really, really wonderful book. There is a book called, and not many people know about this, it’s a book called The Law.

Okay. I think the author’s name, if I’m not wrong, is like Fabian Sebastian, something like that. Okay.

Okay. Again, like 76 pages book written in like some 1850. Very, very relevant, even today, what’s happening today across the world.

Wow. I’ll pick it up today. Even I have not read this one.

Awesome. So, these are like really fabulous recommendations. Now, you know, looking at the market in general, what do you feel, because, you know, you do have the data and you’re working closely with the user.

So, there are, like, this is a question I’m sure everybody perhaps asks you a lot. But after this entire taxation, you know, when it has come in, into crypto, and you know, there is the TDS thing with the exchanges and all. What kind of an impact have you seen in terms of the trading activity that does happen in the country? So, actually, more than taxation, it’s like in TDS, which is really, really hit very negatively and very hard, basically.

And the trading volumes in my view has gone down by like 70-80% across exchanges. Okay. And actually, so one view is that the trading volume in centralized exchanges have gone down.

Okay. But the other view is that the last percent of this volume, which is like, has moved to either foreign exchanges or decentralized exchanges or to some extent P2P. And I was reading one thread about P2P, how dangerous it is, basically on Twitter.

Okay. Because the chances of fraud increases significantly. So, that has also happened, basically, that all these three venues, foreign exchanges, decentralized exchange, which actually, what happens is that it is working counter to the objective of the government.

Because when 1% TDS came, the objective was that the government wants to monitor so that all the transactions are monitored and then if there is any unlawful activity, which happens, they can basically place that. But somehow this has become counterproductive kind of that transactions are going somewhere government is less able to track. Yeah, they’re going under the table.

Absolutely. So, you know, but how would you suggest that, you know, the government counter this? So, actually, what we suggested, I mean, multiple times to the government is that the TDS should be there, but it should be like a token TDS, like 0.01%, where the government is getting the information also. But at the same time, things are not going underground, basically, and it serves both the purpose.

At the same time, I think it also encourages because one of the negative fallback is that of this 1% is that again, there is it brings like some kind of that the government is looking at crypto very, very negatively. And, and people are like, moving away from India, basically. Okay.

So, so that signaling also is very, very important, basically. So the idea is, yeah, there is a brain drain happening ideas reducing like 0.01%, where your government objective is also met. And at the same time, it’s not like seen as very, very negative.

Right. So in terms of, you know, all of this, not so perhaps positive news and numbers and statistics, what do you feel very bullish about when it comes to right now, obviously, we’re in a bear market, but what do you feel will really turn the tide and, you know, help us in entering another bull run? And what do you feel bullish about? So what I think is that we are, like, we are at a stage where it looks like negative, but we are at a stage where every or almost all governments in the world are talking about regulating, whether in a positive way or a negative way. Okay.

And in my view, this cycle will may go for another, let’s say, one year, two years, I don’t know. Okay. But once this cycle is over, and once we cross this hurdle as an ecosystem, okay, then I think the real bull run or the real like, what do you call it real progress, like a huge progress will start into crypto or Web3 space.

I think you’re absolutely right. I think this is, I do feel that obviously, every market has cycles. And, you know, there are bull runs as well as bear runs.

And, but in crypto, obviously, they become a lot shorter. And that is essentially what is happening. But I do feel that, you know, if you’re building the right kind of product and platform that is solving or serving the user well, I think those are the people that will be actually leading the next bull run.

Yeah, yeah. In Web3 itself, do you do you feel that you know, do you feel that you know, you are bullish towards any particular sector? Or are you biased towards any particular sector? So actually, for me, I think, because obviously, I don’t know everything. But for me, I think the most important aspect, if I look at any Web3 project is the level of decentralization.

Basically, A should be solving some problem, obviously, okay. And B at what is the what is the plan for decentralization of that project? Basically, every project, I think, at some level starts with a fairly centralized structure. But how quickly it becomes decentralized, that becomes very, very important.

Other than that, I think what everyone, at least from an investing point of view, needs to keep in mind is, is that ultimately, you’re investing in startups, okay, if there is a new, new project, Web3 project is coming, they are issuing tokens and all that. So you are investing in an inherently risky project. Okay.

What I fundamentally believe is that most of the people are not inherently not like a dishonest, so to say, but there is an inherent risk in any startup. And anyone who is investing in a new Web3 project should keep this in mind and also evaluated it in a way you evaluate any new startup. Who are the founder? Who are the who? I mean, who’s there in the team? What kind of impact it’s going to happen to have on the ecosystem, if it succeeds? So all those things matters here.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. I think due diligence is required whenever you are investing in any sector, you know, be it crypto, be it mutual funds, anything.

What would be like the top five things according to you that, you know, a user should be looking at if they are thinking of making an investment? So I think, first thing that the user should invest in Bitcoin. Okay. That’s the starting point.

The first investment, in my view, should not be in any other coin other than Bitcoin. Okay. That is one.

Second is that, I mean, I covered this point is that educate yourself. I mean, really, really educate yourself what you have been doing. Crypto inherently, because obviously, it’s the market is around 10-12 years old.

Inherently, you have to keep in mind it’s a risky investment. So don’t like invest only that much where you can want to allocate to a risky investment, basically. And within crypto also, again, I said that there has to be a risk allocation in terms of how much you’re investing in bit like Bitcoin or Ether kind of projects, or and how much you’re investing in a new project, basically, so to say, where the returns can be higher, but it can go to zero also.

So risk management, again, becomes a very, very important part. Absolutely. Risk management is very important.

And those are like lovely pieces of suggestions for the user. And don’t trade on leverage if you’re not a professional. Absolutely.

Yeah, I mean, if you’re a professional, that’s a separate story. But if you’re an average investor, kind of it’s not your full time job, you’re investing your hard earned money, then don’t invest on leverage. Absolutely.

I think that is something so important because, you know, trading is a full time job and people think that okay, they can just get into it and they can learn the ropes very quickly. And they start, it’s like, okay, so trading in a way is always like educated gambling. And, you know, I think that we should leave it to full time traders rather than, you know, for people who already have full time jobs, because you cannot possibly make time to study the charts so much and make informed decisions.

Yeah, yeah. So kind of doubling down on what I’m going back to the decentralized aspect of platforms, which is what you like. Tax nodes is obviously a centralized platform.

And how do you ensure the security of the data that you know, you are getting for the dealers? Yeah, so obviously, we I mean, in a way, as of now, at least, what tax node is like a more like a web2 kind of thing, which is serving web3 basically. Okay. And so obviously, I mean, we take all those precautions in terms of encrypting the data and and basically using wall servers, and all that, okay, to, to make sure that the customer data is, is protected, which is obviously very, very important, kind of.

But But I mean, we have to keep in mind that it’s like, at least as of now is more of a, we are like a ancillary or like a helping giving helping hand to web3 space. Yes, absolutely. I think it’s a very useful service.

And I’m sure that this is like a question that would be there in your end user’s mind. So I wanted to bring it so that you know, they can have that particular concern addressed. So tell us a little about, you know, the team that is building tax nodes and how large is it and what is perhaps the next big milestone that you guys are looking at? Yeah.

So basically, we, the current team size is around 20. Okay. And obviously, most of it is, is tech team, we have a wonderful CTO called Karthikeyan.

Okay. He has great experience and he had he had done some startup on on his own also. Okay, so so so that’s about the team.

And obviously, during this peak period, we will be during let’s say, May, June, July, which is a peak period, we will be obviously hiring some CAs, CA firms to help us navigate all these professionals basically on a short term basis. Okay, but long term, like around 20 people. After this season, let’s say, July, August, basically, there are like, three, two, three different paths I can think of right now.

And obviously, it depends on various. One is that essentially what we have built is an international product. I mean, crypto is the same across the world.

So from a technological point of view, it’s the same product. Okay. What we have to change is the taxation layer on top of it, which is maybe like 20% of the world.

Okay, so so so one of the path forward is to go international start, look at one or two of the markets to one, two, three markets and go and launch there. Okay. So that’s one part.

Another part is that go more into like, supporting the ecosystem in the sense support more for supporting exchanges, for example, we talked about compliance regulation, okay. Okay. For example, one of the area which I think is close to my heart is that protection of customer funds, any like, mid level exchange literally has like hundreds of millions of customer funds.

Okay. Do they have systems and processes in place to ensure that the protection of customer funds? Okay. Again, it’s an area where I feel significant amount of work needs to be done, basically.

So that’s another part, I believe. Okay, awesome. So yeah, there is basically two ways in which you know, you guys can grow, moving to and providing services in different countries.

And it can be both also, actually. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

You know, that that is wonderful. So, you know, for our listeners, so I have actually two questions now. So if somebody is listening in, and they are perhaps a CA, how can they look at, you know, applying for a role in your company and joining your team? Oh, so obviously, they can come, they can, they can send us an email, kind of email or LinkedIn message to me.

We have an email ID called HR at They can apply there. Again, one point here is that, and this is I think I missed is that I’m a CA, I’m an accounting professional. And I think CA’s also needs to learn a lot.

I mean, they are being, in my view, very, very concerned. Yeah, they have their own baggage, baggage kind of so. So I think that it will be really, really wonderful if as a professions, chartered accountants, start taking interest into, into this space, start learning about it, because my view is like, next 20, 30, 40 years.

This is the industry to be in. Absolutely, I think I completely concur. And I do feel that, you know, these older professions, they, you know, have, they do have a certain amount of baggage that they come with.

Have you ever considered like talking to the ICAI body and incorporating Web3 as one of the modules? Or is that, is that something like that has ever crossed your mind? So actually, there is some work which is happening at ICAI level, basically. They are coming, but it’s more of an accounting point of view. For example, they came up with a guidance note on when the government basically came up with the tax law.

There is a very, like 70, 80 page document, guidance note on crypto taxation. So they are doing some work, but I think there is a significant amount of scope, which is where they can work a lot, kind of. Actually, I can, I want to like, there is one small story, actually, I mean, it’s like very, very interesting kind of.

Sure, please do share. Yeah. So, so like, like two months back around, I think one and a half months back, I got a call, I was in Singapore, I was coming to India, like on Sunday, Friday, I got a call from, from someone I knew, he’s a chartered accountant.

And they said that they’re talking to a crypto exchange for an audit, basically. Okay. And so said, Why don’t you come and spend some time with us kind of.

So, so although Saturday was a holiday, I said, Okay, let me come and spend like four, five hours with him and his team. Okay. And literally, I mean, and obviously, I mean, literally, it’s a very old firm, kind of, okay.

Right. In Singapore. And literally, like the, obviously, one thing is that very little knowledge about crypto.

But more worrying was that still the, the belief that crypto is just speculation. Okay. It’s nothing but air kind of okay.

So that belief is still there. I mean, okay, we have to do an audit. But in any case, like, it doesn’t mean anything kind of Bitcoin is not backed by anything.

So, and, and then when you talk to those senior people who have been in the, in the profession for like, 30, 40, 50 years, okay. And you realize that still like, we are very, very early, I mean, in terms of being in the industry in terms of the opportunity to spread knowledge, kind of it’s still early. Yeah, no, I, I totally concur, you know, so I’ll add my little anecdote here as well.

So recently, we did like an event in Delhi, okay. And it’s like the premier tech Institute, one of the premier tech institutes in the country. And the students there with they were actually CS students, but nevertheless, their understanding of crypto something, something as simple as setting up a metamask was just not there.

And that was very, it was surprising also. But then, you know, I kind of expected it also at some level, but nevertheless, I think I still feel surprised. Because, you know, you expect students and youngsters to be more curious, right? To be looking at these newer technologies and have a way with them.

Somehow, you know, the discourse has become so shallow that the country is very aware of, you know, the new reel or the new content creator and the new app that enables them to, you know, make that content. But they are not looking at even in their own field to go a little deeper. It’s all superficial.

It’s all at the surface level. It’s all textbook, which is very sad. And it made me realize that, you know, we are so early, like I’ve been in web3 since 2012.

Like it wasn’t even called web3 then. I was just mining some coins right in 2012. And it’s been more than 10 years now.

And then to think that, you know, I feel that okay, probably I get in my own echo chamber. And I get all, you know, smug that okay, now it’s been so long. So a lot of people would know what I’m talking about.

But to have students of a premier tech institute being so bamboozled by a metamask setup was really surprising for me. And you know, that made me realize it’s so early. We are just so damn early.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Absolutely.

And as I said that, I firmly believe that web3 space is going to change everything. It’s going to be much more than, let’s say internet, so to say. It’s technology of the present and technology of the future, so to say.

And everyone, I think, in my view, in whatever profession they are, should spend some time to understand about it. And especially if you want to really work in this space, then really, really go deep and understand the fundamentals, basically. Why Bitcoin, for example? Absolutely.

I think it’s, you know, that is what I tell people. I think everybody owes it to themselves to at least look at this technology, you know, try to understand it a little bit. Because A, I truly believe that if you try to understand the technology, you fall in love with the technology, there is no going back.

And B, I also believe that like the internet, blockchain is like the second greatest equalizer. So you must, you know, right now in this day and age, you can’t sit and be like, okay, I’m not interested in the internet, right? And hope to perhaps grow as a human being, professionally, personally. But in a similar fashion, I believe that, you know, five years down the line, or perhaps sooner, because in web3, things move really fast.

It would be impossible for an individual to say that, okay, I don’t know anything about web3 and not come across looking like a complete nincompoop. Yeah, yeah, that’s right. So in terms of Okay, so now going back to the other question that I had, you talked about like, the growth of the company will come in two ways, like countries and obviously exchanges.

So what would be like a good way for these potential partners to get in touch with you? And what kind of partners are you looking at? Are you just looking at exchanges? Or are you looking at wallets as well? Or are there any other categories that you’re considering? You know, like marketplaces and all for NFTs? What would be an ideal partner, potential partner for you? And how do they get in touch with you? So actually, there are two different kinds of partners. One is exchanges, or let’s say, if you’re building an NFT ecosystem, or a decentralized exchange, or wallets like Metamask and all that. Okay.

So one way is that obviously, we can integrate with them, we can educate their customers, so to say. So we can provide them content about taxation, because this is taxation is one aspect which will touch all these things. Okay.

So that’s one kind of partnership. And on the second side, obviously, we are, we are trying to tie with the professional, which is like started accountants who understand the law, who understand how tax works, okay, and educate them about crypto. Okay, they already know about tax law, and everything, how crypto fits into all these, all these things.

Okay. Because, again, I believe that CA profession, when they start understanding this, they can be a very, very big brand ambassador for this ecosystem. So we need to tap them, we need to educate them, and we need to bring them on board, basically.

So that’s the second, I think, second avenue of building partnerships. Right. And how do you, like, how would you encourage these potential partners who are listening on to this podcast to get in touch with you? Yeah, so I mean, my email ID is Avinash at You can send me an email, we can set up a call.

Really, really happy to work. Because what I believe is that if you want to understand about crypto, and this I’m specifically talking about my professional colleagues, I think if you’re talking to another CA like me, okay, it gives some kind of comfort. But rather than let’s say, if you’re talking to a crypto native, who’s not an accountant, I mean, the language becomes slightly different.

Yeah, no, absolutely. So that’s like doctors talking to each other or, you know, a doctor talking to a patient, right? So when you don’t come from the profession, they will have to explain it differently to you. So and there is a certain level of comfort that comes in, obviously.

Yeah. Awesome. So, you know, we’re running, obviously, a little out of time, but I would love to close this by asking you a question that I ask everybody, whoever comes on the podcast, if somebody is peering in from Web2 and trying to perhaps get into Web3 or is curious about Web3, what would be your top two suggestions for them to start living on blockchain? So, I think number one is, and I think number one, because if you don’t invest your money, hard earned money, your curiosity will not be there.

So, A, buy maybe 100 rupees, 200, 500 rupees, whatever, of Bitcoin and Ether. Okay. That for me, the number one step.

Right. Second, second is, I think, I mean, obviously, there are recommended books, we talked about it, the Bitcoin standard, Internet of Money, listen to all these crypto influencers, Andres and Topalez. Okay.

So, I mean, try to educate, try to study, study. Okay. And third thing, basically, I think is that really trying to set up, like, for example, try to set up a hardware wallet or metamask wallet.

Okay. Try to send test transfers from one wallet to another wallet. Okay.

So that, I mean, I remember when I transferred my first crypto from the sheer joy of basically realizing that it’s like a totally permissionless network. You don’t need anyone’s permission. It’s totally peer to peer.

That realization actually doesn’t come by reading books. So to say. That is true.

Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of, you can’t compare it because you know, if that’s the experience of it, and then you actually experience it firsthand, then, you know, it’s again, it’s, it’s makes you fall in love with the technology a little more. Yeah, yeah.

So I think these three things are the initial steps for anyone should take. I think those are really wonderful suggestions. Thank you so much.

Once again, Avinash for taking all the time to speak to me and giving such wonderful insights to our listeners. Any parting thoughts before we wrap this up? No, I think. Thanks, thanks for inviting me here.

I think we are privileged in a way, both you and me to actually stumble upon this space so early. Absolutely. And second is that I think this technology is going to change, change, I mean, everything kind of, it’s going to change the way we live, the way we transact with each other.

I think it is one technology which, I mean, internet in a way democratized communication. Okay. And towards that goal, I should democratizing everything kind of Web3 will play a very, very significant role where the opportunity which is available to whether someone is sitting in tier two, tier three down in India or in Africa, Africa, the equalization of opportunity, I think, which this technology will give that, that I think, will really, really increase the level of basically everyone in a society.

I totally agree. I think I can’t concur more. I feel like blockchain is the second greatest equalizer after the internet.

And it’s going to change everything. And I do think that is why I keep saying that you owe it to yourself to learn a little bit more about the technology. Yeah, I agree.

Thank you so much, Avinash, once again for taking out this time and all the best for what you’re building at TaxNodes. I am sure that we link it up in our description and our listeners would be pretty happy about signing on and making their tax worries a thing of the past by signing up on TaxNodes. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Tarusha. Thanks.

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