Transcription Episode 93

Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Living on Blockchain. Today we are speaking to Danilo. Danilo is the co-founder and CEO of TheMiracle.

It’s a platform basically where one can see all the benefits associated with the NFTs that they hold in one place. So it’s a utility-first platform. It’s all about, you know, NFTs and digital ownership.

He has a background in business economics and has had extensive experience in IT and banking. He used to work for Credit Suisse, Swisscom, AG. And, you know, he was actually very pivotal in the successful introduction of the Debit MasterCard in Swiss Bank in 2022.

So he’s done his fair share of work in the fintech banking space and post that he started working in the NFT realm. The platform itself is very intuitive. I’ve checked it out myself and I feel it’s a very pertinent platform because as this conversation will tell you and as perhaps you already know, this entire space with the benefits associated with the NFTs, it’s very fragmented.

So it’s easy to, you know, fall in love with this particular platform. Very interesting conversation. If you’re building an NFT or if you have an interest in NFTs in any way, this is one for you.

So I can’t wait for you guys to hear this. Let’s dive right in.

Hi Danilo, how are you doing today? I’m doing fantastic. Nice to meet you.

Nice to talk to you, Tarusha. How are you? Likewise. Thank you so much for making the time to speak to me today.

I’m doing wonderfully well. Awesome. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your background, please, for our listeners to have context and how you got into this space? Yeah, absolutely.

So my background started like my entrepreneurial background started actually with the miracle. But before I worked for six years at the Swiss bank, at Credit Suisse. So I was working like in different sectors from private clients to private banking to institutional clients.

During that time, I always had a passion for computers and for IT because my dad was like one of the first ones in our neighborhood who started like an online business in the early 2000s. So that was like driving me into the IT. For the next 10 years, I was working for the biggest Swiss tech company for Swisscom in different roles, like from the start, like tech support to app support to project manager, banking consultant was like for several years, working in the area of banking software and application management.

And during that time, that was in around 2017, 18, I had the first like interactions with blockchain and crypto. Basically, as a trader, I think like a lot of us are starting like this, they discover some coins and coin market cap and they get excited about it. They want to try it.

So yeah, it’s like my first rodeo in 2017, 2018. Oh, so that’s been quite a journey. Like, you know, you started from your roles in banking and IT to becoming a co-founder and now CEO of The Miracle.

Can you tell us a little about the platform itself? You know, you mentioned that, you know, you started off as a trader like a lot of us did back in the day. So yeah, you go from trading to, you know, perhaps starting something of your own. Absolutely.

So yeah, as I said, I started like in 2017, 18, first time like buying some coins with Ripple. XRP was like my first one. Then during the bear market, of course, I lost all over.

I lost a whole bunch of tokens I had and was again like on zero. And like during the next years, I started more to understand like which problems blockchain are solving. And it was like catching my attention immediately because during that time, we also had the first crypto banks where we did the application management.

So we were setting up some like user management and applications in the back end. And during that time, I dived more and more into the whole like technology side of things and had the opportunity to do a degree in blockchain technology. It’s called like a certificate in advanced studies in blockchain tech at the University of Lucerne.

And during that time, I was like doing some research about how NFTs can change certain dynamics when it comes to consumer brand relationships, when it comes to business models. Of course, also the whole art space. And when I read more about Ethereum and ERC721 tokens, I was immediately thinking, okay, so we have that token.

The token can prove ownership on a mutable ledger. And you can add certain functionality on top of it. So that package was like super interesting.

And I thought, hey, let’s build something like a utility marketplace. That was like the first idea where people can trade the utility. So when we talk about ticketing or membership passes or other kinds of perks and utilities, that was like the start of it back in 2022.

Wow. So you started as a utility platform, like you mentioned. So but how does the miracle like redefine consumer brand interactions, perhaps through digital ownership? Can you tell us a little about that? And what is its USP? Yeah, so so as I said, it started as an idea about how can we how can we like trade the utility of certain of certain digital assets? And it was like it was like a process from when we started to figure out like what’s actually the problem in the space when we talk about utility.

So the problem right now is that you can hold certain NFTs. Those NFTs have utilities attached to it. So let’s say, for example, you’re an owner of the Pudgy Penguins.

And through that NFT, you have access to licensing deals. You have upcoming like airdrops and stuff like that. But the market on that side, how data is distributed and access also from a user is super fragmented.

So as a user, you have to be active on Discord, you have to be active on Twitter. There are certain utilities which are distributed distributed across like websites and also chains. So you have no no option to to track that.

So what we have been building. And it’s tedious, right? It makes the entire process tedious. Yeah, it is super tedious.

And when we talk to people who are or to the holders, the response was, hey, I can’t track things. Discord is a nightmare. If I’m in more than one server, I lose track of it.

And just the nature of Discord is not to publish announcement and important stuff like the utility and the benefits of NFTs, for example. But to interact with the community. So a lot of holders are missing out on the utility because there are no tracking options.

So that was like the beginning of the miracle when we started like aggregating a lot of data and organizing data and link it to the assets. So user can come on the platform, they can connect their wallet and then they see, OK, within the next days, I can, for example, access a certain airdrop or I can participate in a giveaway. So it makes life of holders much easier.

And this is how we reshape like consumer or let’s say community member and brand interactions by boosting the engagement through benefits and utilities. Right. And what is your business model look like? So the business model right now is, well, we started as a free to use platform.

So we launched the open beta in February, end of February 2024. And right now, like we focus on getting feedback in and shipping enhancements, there is planned to introduce a membership model like a subscription model where you have a freemium or like a free version where you can track, for example, your benefits from one chain or from one wallet. And then when you want to track like several chains from several wallets, maybe some premium features on top, like direct claiming through the platform or access to special benefits through our partners, then you will pay a premium fee.

And what we are also working on is that you can trade the access to the benefits which you don’t use. So a problem would be discovered is that maybe you have certain benefits and perks which are like attached to your NFT and which you can access with your NFT, but you are not interested in. So what if you could like separate the access to the benefits and trade it with other people? This is going to be like the next step of the miracle where you can tokenize and trade the access rights to the benefits and there we will introduce like a small transaction fee.

Brilliant. So basically what I’m understanding and you can correct me if I’m wrong. So your platform is probably an aggregator chain agnostic platform where people can take a look at the benefits associated with their NFTs and perhaps at a later stage be able to trade them as well in case they are not utilizing those said benefits.

Absolutely. That’s absolutely correct. We started on Ethereum, like our MVP.

And now in two weeks, the platform will support ordinals. It will support L2s like Blast and Base, Solana, Polygon. So we will be the first ones where you can literally explore all the benefits and perks across multiple blockchains.

And in a second step, as you just mentioned, to trade also benefits which you don’t want to use and creating like a new tokenized sharing economy. That’s the goal. I think the way you’ve described it and the way the platform works, I feel this is something so relevant.

Like I would like to, you know, utilize the platform for the benefits of the NFTs that I have. I think that it’s a real problem that everybody kind of has at the moment. Yeah, I mean, I would love to get your feedback in as we are trying to.

Yeah, I’m signing up as we speak. Awesome. That’s great.

Yeah, I think like right now it solves a problem within the web 3 space. Because as we just discussed, like information is scattered. Access to tracking is complicated.

You have to do things manually and there is no secondary marketplace for things which you don’t use. But like the vision of the miracle, in my opinion, goes further. Because when we talk about loyalty programs or membership programs in general or certain perks and benefits you receive from companies, you don’t have full ownership over those things.

So I think like NFTs can solve that problem where you have full ownership over your benefits and perks. And then you decide what you want to do. You want to use it, you want to trade it, you want to share it with a friend.

This is where I see the future is going. When we have like all the consumer benefits on the blockchain, where companies basically are interoperable. Where the consumer becomes like more than just a consumer, but like a brand ambassador.

Where he is onboarding new people into that ecosystem through on-chain benefits. Yeah, I think that becomes like a wonderful place to be in vis-a-vis user acquisition, right? That somebody likes the platform so much that they are ready to go ahead and share it with their friend. And in this case, there is a tangible benefit associated and a benefit that is to do with perhaps an NFT they’ve bought, which they can sell in part.

So I think this is just wonderful. So what is perhaps the next big milestone apart from these other chains that you’ve added into your ecosystem? What is the next big milestone for you guys? Are you looking to perhaps provide the service for other tokens as well and not just NFTs? Or what other kind of milestones are you looking at? Because I think that the use case can be many, right? Yeah, absolutely. So we just discussed this yesterday that basically every digital asset which can be linked to certain benefits and utilities could become irrelevant on the miracle.

So not only in the NFT space or like on the community or brand side of things, but also on the token side of things. And yeah, but we really, really want to focus on making these first use cases right to really nail that. And then we can go like into other areas like, for example, other tokens and support that too.

Absolutely. I think the goal is really to build a product which is so good. The users, our current like beta testers, they go to their friends and they say, hey, you should go and check the miracle because you can easily track things.

You find new benefits across like lifestyle, music, traveling. So not only crypto. I think they’re like our full focus is right now to really build, ship.

We ship things in weekly releases. We get feedback in fast and we iterate. That’s like the current focus of the miracle because we are still an early stage startup and we want to move fast.

Yeah, absolutely. And are you taking in like this, you know, feedback from your existing community? Which is your most bustling community? Is it on Discord, Telegram? It is actually a little bit scattered. So we have a channel on Discord where we are in touch with some members of the community where we share like it’s kind of a building in public approach where we have certain ideas or certain concepts.

We share with them, we ship something. We get immediately feedback in. So Discord for sure is one of the channels.

A lot is happening also through like DMs and calls. So I am, we like basically every week if possible, even every day in certain like phone calls or discussions where I try to get some feedback in. Just asking, hey, what could be improved on the user profile? Just like two days ago, I had an interesting call and he told me, well, I would love to filter things in a different way.

We discussed it with the team. We already have the changes ready. So I think like the agility, if this is the right word for it, to be agile and to see like where you can get feedback in, whether it is Discord, Twitter, DMs, phone calls.

Just makes sense to gather that information because it’s so valuable. And I think like a lot of startups are lacking in that area. And we did that too last year, to be honest.

So it was like one of the major mistakes last year that we have been building on something without getting feedback immediately. Yeah, I think feedback is like the most valuable source. Absolutely.

I think a lot of entrepreneurs get stuck in that loop, right? They are building for a problem that they feel exists and the user is just not able to see it. And that’s, you know, obviously, then your product, market trade and agile journey to find products becomes a tougher journey, right? It becomes much harder. Because at the end of the day, what you need to do in the very early beginning is a lot of testing.

And with testing, like if you increase testing and experimentation, you increase failure. And that’s totally okay, because the more you fail, the faster you learn and the faster you can adapt things based on the learnings and see where you really find a product or a service or whatever, which fits the customer needs. And without doing that on a very regular basis, you will have a hard time.

And we went through that mistake last year, as I mentioned before, that we have a certain idea of a marketplace with NFTs, with utility, with news and announcements, and we built a whole bunch of things. And then when we ship it, we realized that, hey, at the moment, the only problem is the tracking and the claiming. So we choose a different approach from the beginning of the year, getting feedback in daily, shipping weekly, and we, yeah, we are having a really good progress since then.

So can only advise that for other founders to really listen to feedback and try to get feedback in as soon as possible. Yeah, I totally agree. Can you tell us a little about your team? About my team? Yes.

Yes, absolutely. So the cool thing is, the whole, the miracle started, as I said, back in 2022, when in 2021, I was doing the certificate in advanced studies in blockchain tech. And during that time, I met one of my co-founders.

Basically, he was doing the same certificate, but in cryptocurrencies. There were like two different programs. So one guy who was with me in the same class, he brought us together, maybe like six months after that.

And he said like, hey, both want to start something in Web3. And let’s talk about it. So I met Daniel.

And I met also Gilles. And Daniel is basically our most experienced guy in the team. So he is like a serial entrepreneur, a serial founder.

He founded like seven companies so far, if I’m not wrong. Also one in tech, which he also, where he also did an exit. So it was super interesting for me, who has like a big corporate background.

It was like new into the whole startup and founding to get in touch with Daniel. Was that a startup background? Yes, exactly. Like with his confidence, with so many mistakes he already did.

It was super helpful to get started with him. With his IT background and also sales background. It was for me also super important to, like I felt like we are a super good match.

Like we always said, like Danilo, you are like the visionary and I am the experienced one. And who can give you also immediate feedback and stuff like that. And on top of that, we had Gilles.

And Gilles, that really creative brain and guy who is doing all the UX, UI stuff on the platform. So all the designs are coming from him. And this was like the start.

So a mix of different backgrounds, but united with the same mindset to create a platform in the direction of utilities. And when we started, it was missing someone who can code it, right? So we basically for a year were just like talking to people to share our ideas, our vision. And during that process, we met several guys also from Switzerland.

Our CTO, also called Danilo, is in the web 3 space for like four years as a dev and as a builder. He helped NFT artists to launch several projects. He immediately was like, hey, I really love what you want to build.

It’s a really big thing what you want to do. But I want to be part of that. That was like the interesting thing about how we built the team.

With each person who came into the team, also with Karim on the marketing social media side, Fabio and so on. It was like you share the ideas and the vision of it and they were immediately hooked. They left what they were building at that point or the companies they worked for.

And this is like a cool mix. So we are not only just like tech people, but also people who are coming from marketing, e-commerce, sales, but with a strong background in tech. Wonderful.

It sounds like all the right ingredients kind of came together for this platform. And more power to you guys. I think this is a platform that is really needed.

It is simple to understand. Anybody can understand why you need this. So I think that is what is the basis of a good product.

That everybody should get it immediately. And it kicks. So that is absolutely wonderful.

Now, can you tell me perhaps a little about NFTs in general? Let’s zoom out a little bit. What excites you about this technology? And how do you see this tech impacting industries beyond art and collectibles? Like it already has, but I would love to hear from you. What is your perspective and how do you see it growing? Yes.

So I think like when we go back in time, when I first time bought an NFT, I felt just immediately that it is really hard to describe. But you buy something and it is a digital product. But you have ownership.

You have full ownership. And I think that changes something. It changes something in your mind.

And it is very hard to describe to people who never bought, for example, an NFT. And you like hear always that I can just right-click save and stuff like that. But I think your perspective change when you see the upside, but also the downside of having full ownership.

So you have also certain responsibility. You have to check where you connect your wallet and stuff like that. Think about your seed phrases.

Things which get better and better and better now with the technology and the people who are building it to remove the friction. That is very important. Yeah, I think so too.

If you are looking at any kind of adoption. Like traction. To get traction, you need to remove the resistance.

You need to make it easy. And that is why I really like your platform as well, because it is easy to understand. I like that feedback.

And yeah, I think important is also that the whole onboarding is getting frictionless and easier. So what I just mentioned, when I bought an NFT, back then you had to set up Metamask. You had to send funds to your wallet, connect on OpenSea.

And then there was also another app. That was my first interaction actually with NFTs. It’s called BB Collectibles.

I don’t know if you heard about it. Yes, yes, yes. So the onboarding was super easy and super smooth.

It was a breath of fresh air at that point. 100%. So I think that should be the approach when we talk about user onboarding combined with full ownership.

So I think what excites me about NFTs besides the digital ownership part is that you can also remove intermediaries. So it isn’t just like an item on the blockchain where you can prove digital ownership. You also don’t need intermediaries when it comes to transfer that digital object and build functionality on top.

So when we talk about use cases beyond art, I definitely think that NFTs are the most interesting technology when we talk about identity, also how we present ourselves in the digital space. You can easily identify community members. We have that whole phenomenon in like 2021, 2022 with the board dates.

But I think the most interesting thing I definitely think is the utility side of things. So you have now that digital object where you can prove ownership and now you add certain utilities to it. So let’s talk about digital experiences or also mobile gaming.

You can get access to interviews, online content, and all that kind of stuff. Everything can be accessed through that NFT. So I think that’s, in my opinion, the most promising use case when we talk about NFTs.

I think from a numbers perspective, also gaming. I think gaming is getting stronger and stronger because it just makes a whole lot of sense. Gamers, I think, also getting now finally the better experience on crypto games and web-free games where one, two years ago it was still a bit clunky and also too much friction because at the end of the day, someone who is playing a video game wants to have a cool experience.

But now I see also on that side, it’s getting better and better and better. And once they realize that they can really fully own and control their in-gaming assets, in my opinion, that’s the game changer. So to summarize it, I think community culture will be a huge driver when it comes to NFTs.

Utilities, especially when we talk about consumer applications or like loyalty membership programs and gaming. Yeah. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head with that one.

I do think that the technology is finding more and more acceptability because it’s easy for people now, perhaps, to understand and associate the benefits that NFTs bring to all of these niches. So, you know, initially, I was actually one on the other side, like very initially when I had heard of NFTs and CryptoKitties and, you know, just art collectibles, I did not understand, you know, honestly, the charm. And slowly over time, I’ve understood that the technology itself has so many other use cases and it has been an absolute pleasure to see how this kind of space has evolved.

You know, you have actually been there, done that as well. Are there any particular NFT projects that you feel are very, very promising? Or if somebody is If that kind of puts you in the spot, then I would love to ask if you had to perhaps recommend to somebody who’s looking at the NFT game, how to get into it, perhaps.

What would be the kind of criteria you would advise them to take? What would be the parameters that they should keep in mind? Well, I think it really depends on what you are looking for, what’s your interest in there. I would even say that the miracle can be a good place to discover it. If you are more into traveling or community, or even in dining or sports, you will find something where you find the right tribe, where you can connect with the right people.

But I think there are a lot of projects which are doing an amazing job when it comes to building a community and even a brand or IP. I don’t have to mention Pudgy Penguins. I guess a lot of people know about them.

Lucanet is doing an amazing job, brought the IP outside of that web-free bubble into the biggest retailers and stores. Besides Pudgy Penguins, I think people should look also into Chimpers. Chimpers also created a really cool IP and brand, that pixel art style.

They have a beautiful storytelling, very engaged communities. They’re doing a lot of things also in gaming. And as I mentioned before, it really depends on what’s your interest.

That’s the beautiful thing that NFTs can offer and how the space evolved. Even now when markets are down on that side, it is not just about collectibles or about art. It’s basically now in every industry where you can find cool communities.

Also Kampai Pandas, for example, they have so many cool real-world experiences where people can get access to Formula One races or even boxing fights and stuff like that. I think there are a lot of cool projects to explore. Absolutely, I think that is very true.

How do these projects, if they want to get onboarded onto your platform, are you onboarding these NFT onto the platform or is there a B2B site to your platform as well? The cool thing is when we started, our approach was, hey, let’s solve a problem for the users. And once we solved it, as we did it now on Ethereum with 100 projects on the platform, we will talk to the projects and show them what we have built. So it was like, let’s build it and then we share it.

And now we are getting official partnerships with the projects which we have on the platform because the cool thing is, something I didn’t mention before, once a project is on our platform and once we aggregate the data, everything is fully automated on the other side. So projects don’t have any tasks. They don’t have to set up an account.

They don’t have to set up anything on our platform. We only need the sources where benefits are distributed, like the channels. From there, everything is fully automated.

We have been working on an AI concept where data gets in and then our AI organizes and creates the benefit listings on our platform, as you see it now. So the whole B2B site is fully automated. And if a project would like to get on the Miracle, they can reach out to the team and we can discuss.

Absolutely. All right. Now, again, zooming out a little bit from the Miracle and looking at the industry as a whole, you’ve been in this space for some time now.

So can you tell me what would be the main drivers for the next or, you know, some people say we’re already in the bull market. But what are the kind of niches, according to you, that will really drive this growth in the market? Do you see NFTs being as one of the niches? I think NFTs, they are still a niche when we talk about, like when you have a pie chart and you see how many users are in crypto in general and how many users are in NFT. It’s still a small part of it.

But I think there are like certain use cases which are going outside of that bubble, as I just explained, like when it comes to loyalty and consumer programs, a lot of like fashion brands are looking more and more into NFTs without like mentioning NFTs. So we see a lot of cool things happening on that side. From an industry perspective, I think what I witnessed now when I was in Paris and when I was in Dubai, Token 2049, there is a lot, like a lot of projects are working on the infrastructure side to make access to crypto more frictionless and also seamless.

So it’s not like the goal to have all that, like different kinds of blockchains where users have to use different wallets and it’s just too complicated. So I think like the whole like omni-chain will be a huge driver in future. I am sure NFTs will come back, but in a different way.

I strongly believe NFTs will be used, as we discussed today, across many different industries and utilities will be the main driver on that side and also gaming. In general, gaming also, in my opinion, something which can drive the next bull run and obviously Bitcoin. So the whole original side of things or rooms is super interesting to look into it and obviously L2.

So everything which makes using crypto blockchain more frictionless, also cheaper, is going to be interesting within the next years. Right. Yeah, I do think that, you know, what you mentioned is in a very succinct way kind of covered what I also truly believe would begin or push the bull run in a big way.

What would be the kind of resources that you would want to, you know, suggest for people who are looking to get into the NFT space? I think it’s always good to… Right now, I can highly recommend to check out Farcaster. I don’t know if you already signed up for Farcaster, but I think there are very, very clever minds who are sharing like a lot of alpha and cool stuff on that platform. But I think in general, it is still very niche when it comes to resources.

So I think Twitter is still a good platform, but you have to follow the right account. There are very good podcasts. Obviously, I think Decrypt and Rock Radio are doing a fantastic job.

So Decrypt even has like… They have like a program where you can sign up and learn stuff for free and to get like a certificate, if I’m not wrong. And Rock Radio is doing like daily and weekly shows on Twitter, like Twitter spaces. So I think like the thing about NFTs is it’s not just about NFT.

It is more a mix of NFTs and Web3 in general. You can get started on Twitter. Discord, I think it’s too complicated as the first single point of where you can get started.

But I don’t know how the situation is over on YouTube. So yeah, it’s a good question. I think now your question made me thinking that maybe there is a need for better educational material.

If I think about it. Yeah, I think it was all very, very fragmented. I think like a lot of things in Web3, right? It’s all over the place.

You do need like… There’s no one go-to platform that you can go to perhaps and get all the right information. You need to know who to follow and what kind of information to sort of assimilate. So that can be a little complicated and that is perhaps a problem statement that any one of our listeners can pick up and start working on.

Yes. And at the end of the day, I think the best learning is to get started with something like to maybe get your first NFT set up, set up a wallet and also that it will get easier. So what we will also push within the next two or three weeks is that you can create an account with email or even by social logins and the wallet will be implemented in the backend.

So you don’t have to get started with those pain points of setting up a wallet and stuff like that. I think that helps too. And then I think just join like a community where you think you have certain interests which overlaps and then yeah, then the rest is going to be history.

At least that was like how I started. Right. Once you start learning a little bit, I think you’ll come across more resources that will work better for you.

So I do agree there, right? Once you go down that rabbit hole, you’ll actually be able to discern perhaps what are the right resources and what are the kind of right people that you should be following. But you do need to, if you want to really get in the space, I think in Web3, this is something very unique as against other sectors perhaps because they have already been around for some time. So there’s information on the outside and you can perhaps go through it and get a fair idea about how things are.

But in Web3, I think you need to really get down and dirty, get your hands dirty, really do before you can take that call. I agree. Yeah.

100%. And I think it’s also good that you, like the learning curve is super, super fast and steady. And yeah, I think I didn’t meet any person within the last years who didn’t say, oh shit, I got scammed, I clicked the wrong link and stuff like that.

It’s just like it helps to understand the technology and the possibilities and also the gaps to get there where we are right now. And the more people learn about it, the easier it gets also in future. I’m 100% sure that the blockchain technology will be the underlying technology, not only in like culture and the whole consumer side of things, but also when we talk about finance and yeah, just overall pretty bullish on the industry.

Yeah, absolutely. You and me both. So Dino, this has been such a wonderful conversation.

I almost don’t want it to end, but we are running out of time. I would love to ask you this one last question that I ask everybody who comes on this particular podcast and when we push these out on all these platforms, you made a leap, right? You were working in banking and IT and from there, from helping out with the initial debit cards that were getting pushed out with MasterCard, now you’re working with NFTs. You took that leap of faith and you started working in this space.

What would be your advice to perhaps aspiring entrepreneurs or even just users who are sitting on the fence regarding blockchain technology as a whole? What would be your perhaps top three suggestions for them to be able to start living on blockchain? I think like first, really follow what you’re passionate about. I think that it comes mostly down to that question like what really drives you and what you’re passionate about. You should try to find ways how you can express yourself or work or build something.

I mean, it doesn’t have to be building a startup as I did. It can also be creating content or also what you do like podcasts. I think it’s wonderful to find your thing what you’re passionate about and then get started.

The second thing is that you might face a lot of people who say, oh, it can’t be done or does that even have a future or whatever. So don’t listen to naysayers. I think that’s a really, really important thing.

Number three is find the right people. So find the right people who believe in the same vision or in the same thing what you do. And then from there, things will get much easier if you have people who you can work together on the thing you want to build and bring to other people.

Absolutely. I think find your tribe, find what your passion is and then build towards that. So those are good nuggets to end this particular episode with.

Thank you once again for making the time to speak to me today. Any parting words before we wrap this up? I want to say thank you that I got the chance to talk to you, Tarusha. I really enjoyed the conversation.

For the listeners, if you want to figure out what you can all do with NFTs, you can check out our platform, We are super happy about getting feedback in to make the user experience better and better and better. Lovely. This is a wonderful way to end it.

I’m going to put in the platform as well as the community in the description of the podcast. So listeners, do check it out. I’m already on the platform.

I find it super intuitive and interesting and I’m exploring it as we speak. So this has been wonderful. And thank you so much once again, Danilo.

Thank you, Tarusha. Hopefully talk to you soon again. Absolutely.

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